top dead center, Model B

glenn in camino

Well-known member
I'm reassembling my Model B engine and I noticed that when the timing gear mark is aligned with the mark on the crank gear, the #1 piston is about 1" from the top. I thought top dead center was all the way to the top.
 
I am pretty sure the marks you mentioned only align to time the crank with the cam and have nothing to do with TDC of no 1 piston. TDC on no one cylinder is when the piston is at the top of the compression stoke and naturally both valves are closed. That is when the timing pin falls into the hole on the timing gear. You can look through the spark plug hole to see when no 1 it at the top of the block. It is a 4 storke engine so make sure it is on the compression stroke. The piston will push your finger off the spark plug hole when the piston is moving up on the compression stroke.

Good luck
 
Yep, What 31 and J said. When the pin drops in the dimple, its TDC on an A and if I remember correctly its 19º BTDC on a B. The timing alignment mark on the crank gear is placed the way it is to allow this to happen. Thats my take on this anyway.
 
At the risk of being called a bully, you are all wrong about why the piston is BTC when the crank and cam gear marks are aligned. The reason the piston is low in the bore is that the cam is offset to the crank not directly above it as a V8 is. This offset requires the gears to be aligned with the piston below the top of the bore and the reason the dimple is marked offset to the right when the piston is at the top, not directly above the crank. The advance in the timing by the timing cover is for ignition timing not cam timing and, the A and B engines use the same marks for ignition with respect to the timing cover used with the proper distributor.

BTW, you will find that when the marks are aligned the engine will be on the exhaust stroke and the exhaust valve will be opening.
 
Last edited:
At the risk of being called a bully, you are all wrong about why the piston is BTC when the crank and cam gear marks are aligned. The reason the piston is low in the bore is that the cam is offset to the crank not directly above it as a V8 is. This offset requires the gears to be aligned with the piston below the top of the bore and the reason the dimple is marked offset to the right when the piston is at the top, not directly above the crank. The advance in the timing by the timing cover is for ignition timing not cam timing and, the A and B engines use the same marks for ignition with respect to the timing cover used with the proper distributor.

BTW, you will find that when the marks are aligned the engine will be on the exhaust stroke and the exhaust valve will be opening.


Well, I guess thats different way to look at it. I still don't look at it quite that way, but.... Any other in-line engine, that I'm familiar with, when the cam and crank gear timing marks [cam/valve timing] are aligned correctly the piston is then at TDC. The ignition timing is then accomplished differently than on an A. But, I'm probably wrong again and not going to argue or belabor the point.
 
Well, I guess thats different way to look at it. I still don't look at it quite that way, but.... Any other in-line engine, that I'm familiar with, when the cam and crank gear timing marks [cam/valve timing] are aligned correctly the piston is then at TDC. The ignition timing is then accomplished differently than on an A. But, I'm probably wrong again and not going to argue or belabor the point.
This is not any other inline engine. If you look at any other inline engine, the timing marks are positioned the same BUT, the ignition marks are different since no other more modern inline uses a pin to locate TDC. Even the A could have been designed differently but it wasn't as this was Fords technology. If you think the A is confusing, try timing a T for the first time. It has no timing pin or any way to time the ignition except by the position of the actual piston with no external locator.
 
I learned how to time my "B" with its "A" distributor and "B" timing cover.
From a question I asked here on the ...'Barn. I forget who it was that told me to pull the sparkplug from the no. 1 cylinder and physically see
the piston at TDC. But, thanks again as I'm sure I thinked them at the earlier time too.;) After 2 years I finally found my extra "A" timing cover.
So, in the near future..........:)

Bob-A:D
 
This is not any other inline engine. If you look at any other inline engine, the timing marks are positioned the same BUT, the ignition marks are different since no other more modern inline uses a pin to locate TDC. Even the A could have been designed differently but it wasn't as this was Fords technology. If you think the A is confusing, try timing a T for the first time. It has no timing pin or any way to time the ignition except by the position of the actual piston with no external locator.

Yep, see. We're saying pretty much the same thing. I still say Ford did what they did with the cam gear to eliminate any confusion had 2 dimples been drilled. They solved valve timing with the crank gear and ignition timing with the cam gear, they were multi-tasking. :)
 
Yep, see. We're saying pretty much the same thing. I still say Ford did what they did with the cam gear to eliminate any confusion had 2 dimples been drilled. They solved valve timing with the crank gear and ignition timing with the cam gear, they were multi-tasking. :)
I agree. :)
 
Maybe we have gotten a bit off topic, but, I was taught by my grandfather to static time just about every engine. On a distributor engine I align the timing marks and when installing it, I just make sure its settled in correctly with the rotor pointing in the correct direction[ weird but not all engines are timed on #1]. Rotate the body until the points are going what you want them to do and snug the distributor up a bit. Hook up the timing light and install the cap. Start it up and set the timing and tighten the distributor. Without access to a timing light, it takes a bit more care setting everything where it should be. Pretty much the same as we do with these old As.
 
You may never need it again, but while I had it apart, I'd make a mark for TDC on the crank pulley and a corresponding mark on the cover, or a pointer, and you'd have it for future reference...it might come in handy down the road. I'd also make a 9 deg mark if that's where I was planning to run the timing.JMHO.:)
BTW, James I appreciate your input on this stuff...you're not a bully if you're right.;)
 
Last edited:
On the compression stroke a Model T the crank starting pin is horizontal at 9 and 3 for TDC. At about 3:15 or so the pin is just past TDC and that is were you set your timing. So it does have a timing pin. :)
Unless of course you have one of few crankshafts that someone re-drilled the hole for the pin.
 
FWIW:

Just one way to look at Model A timing vs. Model B timing with mixed A & B distributors & mixed A & B timing covers is:

1. TDC on both A's & B's occur when no. 1 piston is at the top & at the center of crankshaft rotation between the no. 1 piston moving up & down on the "compression" stroke. One can accurately test compression stroke by removing the no. 1 spark plug. The compression stroke occurs when valves are closed; hence, with one's thumb over the no. 1 spark plug hole, one can feel air trying to escape. On the following exhaust stroke, valves are open & no air pressure will be felt.

2. The A & B crank shaft gears as well as the A & B timing gears are interchangeable; hence, both have the same number of teeth with a ratio of two to one whereby the larger timing gear makes two revolutions for each one crankshaft revolution.

3. After installation, the A & B timing gears, (which operate the up & downward movement of valves & the A & B distributor shaft rotation), they are alike in that both the timing gears & the distributor shafts are rotating twice as fast as the crankshaft. This engine movement thus far was not designed to be adjustable after proper installation & remains fixed for both A & B.

4. Next is the change in the later new B timing cover, with a different location of the timing pin, to advance the B's ignition timing for the new B centrifugal advance distributor. With a new B timing pin cover, if one measures the new B timing pin location, the new B timing pin will be located 9-1/2 degrees above that of an A timing pin. When measured from the timing gear's center, the radius measurement to the timing gear indentation is 2-1/2"; i.e., the B timing pin is located .415" or about 7/16" upwards of the A timing pin location. Remember the crank is turning CW & the timing gear is turning CCW when one faces the front of the radiator.

5. What this means is that on an A engine or on a B engine with an A timing cover, the timing pin slips in at TDC; however, with an A or with a B engine, with a new B timing cover, the pin slips in BTDC whereby the no. 1 piston will not have yet reached the top.

6. Just one way to avoid ignition timing confusion if one uses both an A distributor & a B distributor from time to time, and/or if one does not know if one has an A or B timing cover, just spend about $30.00 to buy the neat & sturdy A, removable, timing cover device advertised on e-bay. After mounting the device on either an A engine or a B engine, accurately determine TDC for no. 1 piston on the "compression" stroke & provide a vee mark on the crankshaft pulley adjacent to zero (0) degrees on this timing device. Paint bottom of vee white.

7. When using an A distributor, time same when crankshaft pulley vee mark is adjacent to zero on the timing device.

8. When using a B distributor, time same when the crankshaft pulley vee mark is located adjacent to 9-1/2 degrees BTDC mark on the timing device. Because the crankshaft pulley's radius is similar to the radius of the timing gear's pin indentation, the crankshaft's vee mark when at 9-1/2 degree BTDC will occur approximately at 7/16" on the passenger's side of the timing device's zero mark.

9. For timing either an A & a B distributor, when the crankshaft's vee mark is positioned on the corresponding timing device marks specified for A & B in above paragraphs 7. or 8., the points should just begin to be opened by the CCW rotating distributor cam.

10. One can perform a final timing check with a timing light if so desired.

Hope this helps.
 
FWIW:

Just one way to look at Model A timing vs. Model B timing with mixed A & B distributors & mixed A & B timing covers is:

1. TDC on both A's & B's occur when no. 1 piston is at the top & at the center of crankshaft rotation between the no. 1 piston moving up & down on the "compression" stroke. One can accurately test compression stroke by removing the no. 1 spark plug. The compression stroke occurs when valves are closed; hence, with one's thumb over the no. 1 spark plug hole, one can feel air trying to escape. On the following exhaust stroke, valves are open & no air pressure will be felt.

2. The A & B crank shaft gears as well as the A & B timing gears are interchangeable; hence, both have the same number of teeth with a ratio of two to one whereby the larger timing gear makes two revolutions for each one crankshaft revolution.

3. After installation, the A & B timing gears, (which operate the up & downward movement of valves & the A & B distributor shaft rotation), they are alike in that both the timing gears & the distributor shafts are rotating twice as fast as the crankshaft. This engine movement thus far was not designed to be adjustable after proper installation & remains fixed for both A & B.

4. Next is the change in the later new B timing cover, with a different location of the timing pin, to advance the B's ignition timing for the new B centrifugal advance distributor. With a new B timing pin cover, if one measures the new B timing pin location, the new B timing pin will be located 9-1/2 degrees above that of an A timing pin. When measured from the timing gear's center, the radius measurement to the timing gear indentation is 2-1/2"; i.e., the B timing pin is located .415" or about 7/16" upwards of the A timing pin location. Remember the crank is turning CW & the timing gear is turning CCW when one faces the front of the radiator.

5. What this means is that on an A engine or on a B engine with an A timing cover, the timing pin slips in at TDC; however, with an A or with a B engine, with a new B timing cover, the pin slips in BTDC whereby the no. 1 piston will not have yet reached the top.

6. Just one way to avoid ignition timing confusion if one uses both an A distributor & a B distributor from time to time, and/or if one does not know if one has an A or B timing cover, just spend about $30.00 to buy the neat & sturdy A, removable, timing cover device advertised on e-bay. After mounting the device on either an A engine or a B engine, accurately determine TDC for no. 1 piston on the "compression" stroke & provide a vee mark on the crankshaft pulley adjacent to zero (0) degrees on this timing device. Paint bottom of vee white.

7. When using an A distributor, time same when crankshaft pulley vee mark is adjacent to zero on the timing device.

8. When using a B distributor, time same when the crankshaft pulley vee mark is located adjacent to 9-1/2 degrees BTDC mark on the timing device. Because the crankshaft pulley's radius is similar to the radius of the timing gear's pin indentation, the crankshaft's vee mark when at 9-1/2 degree BTDC will occur approximately at 7/16" on the passenger's side of the timing device's zero mark.

9. For timing either an A & a B distributor, when the crankshaft's vee mark is positioned on the corresponding timing device marks specified for A & B in above paragraphs 7. or 8., the points should just begin to be opened by the CCW rotating distributor cam.

10. One can perform a final timing check with a timing light if so desired.

Hope this helps.
Nice explanation, H.L. Thanks. Just one thing, the cam turns half as fast as the crank, not twice as fast.
 
3. After installation, the A & B timing gears, (which operate the up & downward movement of valves & the A & B distributor shaft rotation), they are alike in that both the timing gears & the distributor shafts are rotating twice as fast as the crankshaft. This engine movement thus far was not designed to be adjustable after proper installation & remains fixed for both A & B.
end quote

?????? Really ????

I mentioned that I thought the Model B ignition was 19º BTDC. I'm sorry for being wrong about that, and, it didn't make sense anyway as that seems like way too much. But, I thought its what I remembered. 9.5º BTDC sounds 'much more better'. I'm glad you mentioned that.
 
I only have one question, why is ignition timing being discussed when the original poster asked a specific question about the cam gear timing?
 
Back
Top