Pink slip tital

FlatheadTed

FlatheadTed

Well-known member
I have seen cars here were all the number s do not match .I noticed on the 32 thread Wiz kids post, he talks about frame # being on all three places, this is the # on the left rail ,Should this appear on the papers and in three other places , Is it correct that In some states in the USA its legal to sell titles ? so a old car can be brought back to life by using a tag from another vehicle .I see Ryan has a ban on such practices does this mean there is a question mark over the legality of it ,or would it make it difficult to register ,

quote I will throw in my 2 cents: I know I'm little off base. BUT I have a 33 phaeton that is body #62 with ID# 18-175000. (not exact # ) how is this possible? I have know about this car since around 1961-65. I have had it since 1975 , only two owners since then, and I know both of them. frame # is on all 3 places and is same on pink slip (California title) any answer or just more questions
Nick 510-889-1933
 
States have different laws that cover this issue. Just like the gun law for example, if you go buy a gun at a sporting goods store they run a back ground on you. If you try to buy a title legally that agent would have to ensure that your buying a clear or builders title or salvaged one. You can buy titles at swap meets and any other places that they sell antique cars. How ever those titles that are purchased through these channels, you may build the car and then someone show up saying they own the car that you built. We're all in the old car business and we this this happening everyday. This is just my opinion on this matter. G-man
 
FlatheadTed said:
I have seen cars here were all the number s do not match .I noticed on the 32 thread Wiz kids post, he talks about frame # being on all three places, this is the # on the left rail ,Should this appear on the papers and in three other places , Is it correct that In some states in the USA its legal to sell titles ? so a old car can be brought back to life by using a tag from another vehicle .I see Ryan has a ban on such practices does this mean there is a question mark over the legality of it ,or would it make it difficult to register ,

quote I will throw in my 2 cents: I know I'm little off base. BUT I have a 33 phaeton that is body #62 with ID# 18-175000. (not exact # ) how is this possible? I have know about this car since around 1961-65. I have had it since 1975 , only two owners since then, and I know both of them. frame # is on all 3 places and is same on pink slip (California title) any answer or just more questions
Nick 510-889-1933
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As pointed out, not all states are the same - rules vary. Speaking for Calif, as far as I am aware, I think it's ok to buy and sell titles. I have no idea what Ryan's concern is with this. Having said that, it's NOT ok to use that title, or number, on another vehicle. And, I know, there are people out there that are bending the rules. Boyd Coddington (rip) comes to mind - he got into some trouble over this issue. And, around this same point in time, I was trying to register a 32. I became friendly with the director of a local DMV, and he told me that (at that time) he was very aware of Ford numbers, what they look like, and what numbers go with what year. IE, he was educated on the same old Ford V8 number info that all the rest of us have. And, at that time, the ca dmv was 'on the watch' for people that were bending the rules - like Boyd. I think that ca made a point of making an example of Boyd.
With that said, there are lots of cars out there that have bogus numbers, real Ford numbers, but numbers that have been 'attached' the the vehicle you see them on. One example... I was at the Bishop car show a few years ago - admiring a really nice 32 3W street rod. It had an open hood, and I naturally looked at the vin. And, right there, for all to see, was a genuine (or meticulously reproduced) 18- Ford VIN. I noticed right off that it was NOT a 1932 number, so I made a mental note, and looked it up later. It was a 1941 Ford number, very neatly grafted into a reproduction 1932 frame. Point being, it has been done, but very illegal in ca.
Back to a part of your question... In ca, all frame-stamped numbers, and the number on the title (pink) are supposed to match. I've only had one personal experience where the title-number did not match the frame number. In that case (1942 Ford), I simply took the car, and the title, to my local dmv, with the question 'what should I do?' It was a simple and quick fix - they inspected the number on the car, took my pink slip, and issued me a new pink slip with the correct vin. (no questions asked) JMO
 
US Federal Law also covers fraud but the federal government generally stays out of it unless the vehicle that is questionable is sold over state lines. Ownership in most cases is not disputed unless fraud can be proved. This is sometimes difficult to do. When a company or an individual gets greedy and starts building multiple clone cars with out proof of where they came from then sells them over state lines is when the red flags go up. Single vehicle transactions are much more difficult to prove any form of fraud unless other vehicles show up with the same numbers.
 
I suspect Ryan has formed an ethical view that the potential for trading in Titles may lead to stolen cars being rebirthed.

The Grey Area...

Some people see law's as a handicap in the pursuit of their own interests, and so willingly bend or break the rules. Others may form a view from what they think is a personal neccessity, and bend the rules one or two times for the vehicle they have in hand.

Is there a difference between the two? Yes and no. The first guy won't care where the vehicle and Title came from, and as long as he can make the rules work to his advantage everythings just fine with him. Call him what he is: Scammer, Criminal.
The second guy may have come across a vehicle where the title has been genuinely lost, if he buys the Title from another vehicle he runs the risk of buying a Title belonging to a stolen car.

A while ago on Fordbarn a guy from Europe was trying to buy a Title for a 32 Ford, and the reason was, he couldn't register his car without it. It transpired he had imported a genuine chassis and running gear and put another body onto it.

I questioned why he would have imported a chassis without the Title. I also observed that if US Customs were aware that Ford numbers are on the Chassis and not the body (like other makes) he would have been unable to import. The scenario here could go this way; a car is stolen and the body removed from the Chassis, the un-numbered body becomes a Hotrod with a new manufactured chassis and the original running gear is sold overseas to another Hotrodder, who fits a repo body to his chassis. It;s a win-win for everybody, except the guy who had his car stolen.

Titles are important legal documents, they are invested with proof that the person named on the document is the legal owner of the vehicle mentioned in the document. If people choose to circumvent the law they are responsible for their actions. Self justification for bending or breaking the rules is a convenient cop out. Many second hand titles no doubt are legitimate, but who is to know. I suspect Ryan is also taking the position of not wanting the HAMB or Fordbarn associated in any way with suspect documents.
 
bobH said:
Back to a part of your question... In ca, all frame-stamped numbers, and the number on the title (pink) are supposed to match. I've only had one personal experience where the title-number did not match the frame number. In that case (1942 Ford), I simply took the car, and the title, to my local dmv, with the question 'what should I do?' It was a simple and quick fix - they inspected the number on the car, took my pink slip, and issued me a new pink slip with the correct vin. (no questions asked) JMO
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Any title problems are a headache.

I had this issue in Ohio. Title was one digit off from the frame numbers.

I took several days to find someone that could even tell me what to do. Several DMV folks wanted me to have it inspected as a salvage vehicle at an inspection station an hour away. I didn't even own the car yet and no one knew if it would make a two-hour round trip (it would not have made it BTW).

I tried to explain this was an original matching parts vehicle and I didn't want a salvage title if at all possible.

The estate had a copy of the previous title from Oregon and it also had the same wrong numbers on it. They also had copies of all the paperwork from when the car came into Ohio and was inspected and issued an Ohio title (again, with the wrong numbers).

Luckily, the inspector that issued the paperwork when the car came into the state was still employed at the DMV. He even remembered the car.

He even came to my home to see the car and he pushed the paperwork through for me. I don't know what would have happened if he had retired or was otherwise no longer involved in title work.

Worked out, but I was lucky.
 
I don't think a salvage title distracts from the value of a 70+ year old car, unless a real "restoration" is being dome...I'd have no issues buying a "salvaged '36-whatever after looking it over, it's certainly not like buying a salvaged 2001 Mustang where resale value is a concern.

Heck, how many driver Early V8 vehicles have all their original metal, etc., anyways? How many have had frames straightened, portions patched, etc?

Sure, now with modern vehicles it's a concern, but a 70+ year old car?
 
In NJ a salvage title is just that. The car is for salvage only and cannot be put on the road. Same goes for "flood" title. If the car had been stolen back in the 40's or 50's, someone or his estate is going to be very happy to get their car back all restored.
 
As others have mentioned, incorrect titles can go back a long way. I bought my 35 pickup from a family in ND that had owned it since 1939. When the father died sometime around 1990 or so, the kids had the title transferred into their name. When I bought the truck from these 'kids', the title said something like CC12345678 instead of 1812345678. No one in ND could tell me what the CC stood for but I highly doubt it was added in 1990.

Long story longer, I had to have the car inspected here by the Florida Highway Patrol and have ND issue a corrected title to the 'kids'. I then had them sign it over to me again. Finally...after about 3 months of this utter nonsense, I successfully got our local tag office to issue me a new title in my name.

Probably goes without saying but I can only say that you DO NOT want to wait until you have spent countless hours and big money restoring a car and then try to get the paper work right. Do it before you ever start.
 
Titles on older vehicles are not at all a straightforward issue since
many states didn't have titles prior to the 1970s.
Most "late to title party states" will not issue a title on a vehicle prior to that beginning date - generally somewhere around 1972 or thereabouts. That means registering an older titled vehicle from a state that has a title in another state can immediately break the "title" chain. But it wasn't always that way so reading current laws is not necessarily indicative of what could have happened in the past.
Some states registered vehicles or used the engine number - not the frame serial number. Had one of those and the buyer had to put up a bond in his state to get it corrected to match the frame serial number.
As far as "mistakes", I have seen one case where the "vin" number excluded the 18- beginning sequence probably because of very light stamping from the factory.

So what does this mean? Fifty states with varying regulations that have evolved over time means there are a multitude of scenarios with serial numbers and titles(or registrations) - some legitimate and some probably not.

An assigned VIN number by state that matches the title (or registration) might be the safest legal scenario but diminished the value of the veicle in the eyes of some collectors
 
V12Bill said:
In NJ a salvage title is just that. The car is for salvage only and cannot be put on the road. Same goes for "flood" title. If the car had been stolen back in the 40's or 50's, someone or his estate is going to be very happy to get their car back all restored.
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Interesting. I suppose then the reason for a salvage title in NJ is to be able to sell parts off a car and prove ownership of the parts?
 
Titles are like currency - you can use it but you can't "own it". The US government "owns" that cash in your wallet but allows you to use it. The states "own" the titles but issue them and thus allow you to "use" them.
So, technically, you can't sell what you do not own.
Many of the old salvaged titles that are floating around were had from defunct salvage yards. legally, once a car was destroyed, that title was to be stamped in a permanent way so as to show it was in fact destroyed. Then, that same title was to be returned to the issuing state.
Obviously this did not always (rarely?) happened.

I won't argue the case for or against the re-stamping of frames to match a newly obtained title. However, it is illegal. We all know it is.
 
Human nature being what it is, folks will do what ever they can to get what they want. Alcohol was illegal during prohibition but folks still found a way to consume it. New bodies for Ford design roadsters & coupes are perpetuating the act of folks building what they want but may not be able to afford otherwise. I wonder how many titles mention a fordor body type but the actual car is a roadster?
 
[quote I will throw in my 2 cents: I know I'm little off base. BUT I have a 33 phaeton that is body #62 with ID# 18-175000. (not exact # ) how is this possible? I have know about this car since around 1961-65. I have had it since 1975 , only two owners since then, and I know both of them. frame # is on all 3 places and is same on pink slip (California title) any answer or just more questions
Nick 510-889-1933[/QUOTE]

The body # 62 was put on by the body maker, it has no relationship to the engine/chassis # that is the "serial"# for motor vehicle use
The "ford" made bodys didn't get a body # plate
 
Kurt in NJ said:
[quote I will throw in my 2 cents: I know I'm little off base. BUT I have a 33 phaeton that is body #62 with ID# 18-175000. (not exact # ) how is this possible? I have know about this car since around 1961-65. I have had it since 1975 , only two owners since then, and I know both of them. frame # is on all 3 places and is same on pink slip (California title) any answer or just more questions
Nick 510-889-1933
Click to expand...

The body # 62 was put on by the body maker, it has no relationship to the engine/chassis # that is the "serial"# for motor vehicle use
The "ford" made bodys didn't get a body # plate[/QUOTE]

That's a good point, and one that I think we missed, this time around. Over the years, I've seen several posts here on this, and it seems there are a substantial number of folks, and states, that want or try to make use of a body tag number. When talking about V8-era Fords, that body tag number means nothing (for title purposes).
 
The body # 62 was put on by the body maker, it has no relationship to the engine/chassis # that is the "serial"# fcor motor vehicle use
The "ford" made bodys didn't get a body # plate[/QUOTE]

I'll have to second the comment about body numbers, vs no body numbers on Ford cars..
I have owned my '36 Ford for over 61 years, I am the second owner of the car having purchased it from the original owner.. The car was dead stock when I bought it with only 51k showing on the odometer..
For many years I wondered why my car did not have a body number on the right side of the firewall.. The black paint on the firewall is the factory original paint.. I looked many times for signs of the attachment holes in the firewall for a body number, never could find one..
Many years ago I found the answer to the question.. Ford only used body numbers on bodies that they "out sourced".. Bodies that were built in the Ford plant, did not have a body number...
As a general rule, the body tags, ie., number plates, on most other manufactures vehicles have nothing to do with the serial number (VIN).. The body number and VIN never match because the body numbers pertain more to the style/color, trim, etc., of the body, not the mechanical component's.. Ford did not adopt the use of in depth info on their body tags until the '49 model year...
 
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