Rebuilt engine teardown (pictures) (final edit and pix)

[Rancho Deluxe]

The recent post by Fred: "New Engine 1000 miles compression test" is a question about my just-removed rebuilt engine. I have some others here and any help will be greatly appreciated. The engine has been removed after only 1000 miles to identify and fix several problems. The main one is excessive oil leakage past the rear main which has the stock slinger setup. The leak rate lost over a quart in 100 miles. After being tight to start, the motor loosened up greatly and suddenly at about 200 miles. The rear main then began to leak. There has been a ticking valve sound near #3 that could not be stopped by valve clearance adjustment. The engine sometimes delivers unusual knocking noises very briefly when started cold. Tiny amounts of water appeared in engine drain oil and radiator water consumption has been somewhat higher than expected requiring about 3 quarts refil after 100 miles or so. All these things caused some alarm and made me expect a nightmare on teardown. But the inside looks clean, good and professionally assembled so far. There is a quantity of orange RTV "sealant" oozed out of the rear main journal mating surface. The assembler had some idea there that I've never seen before and I fully expect to find the oil drain passage in the rear main to be plugged with a stray piece of that RTV. The rest is probably pretty conventional but now's the time to take care of anything I can find. Here's my first question. The crankshaft end play measures .017 to .020 thousandths. Aspen's book lists .003 as a maximum for that. So is it important? what are the consequences and what to do about it?
Next up is the flywheel runnout. Watch this space.
Thanks, Rancho

As indicated above, I've checked other measurements and also have some pictures to add to the above. Flywheel fore and aft "wobble" measures .017 in. One rod shows end play .015 inches, the rest below .012 in. The pictures show the RTV squeeze out. I will also post views of the bearing when I have it opened up. Thanks for the advice all. The expectation is still that the oil passage is blocked by a stray gob of this stuff. But the question will then be whether I can do anything about all this without having to rebabbit the engine.

With the rear cap off, I found no blockage of the oil gallery. There was no shim set, even tho the other mains have shims installed. There is prussian blue on the sides of the journal but the center is shiney. There is what I'd call an extra groove in the cap from a central oil drain hole to the interior bottom center edge. (Ever seen anything like that before?) The babbit material is cracked along the face near the groove and all the way thru the inside edge that is the thrust bearing surface. The babbit bearing thrust face on the top half of the bearing was measured for clearance with a feeler guage, It shows .014 in. clearance on the engine right side, and .018 in. on the left. I've added 5 new photos

 

[George Miller]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

The recent post by Fred: "New Engine 1000 miles compression test" is a question about my just-removed rebuilt engine. I have some others here and any help will be greatly appreciated. The engine has been removed after only 1000 miles to identify and fix several problems. The main one is excessive oil leakage past the rear main which has the stock slinger setup. The leak rate lost over a quart in 100 miles. After being tight to start, the motor loosened up greatly and suddenly at about 200 miles. The rear main then began to leak. There has been a ticking valve sound near #3 that could not be stopped by valve clearance adjustment. The engine sometimes delivers unusual knocking noises very briefly when started cold. Tiny amounts of water appeared in engine drain oil and radiator water consumption has been somewhat higher than expected requiring about 3 quarts refil after 100 miles or so. All these things caused some alarm and made me expect a nightmare on teardown. But the inside looks clean, good and professionally assembled so far. There is a quantity of orange RTV "sealant" oozed out of the rear main journal mating surface. The assembler had some idea there that I've never seen before and I fully expect to find the oil drain passage in the rear main to be plugged with a stray piece of that RTV. The rest is probably pretty conventional but now's the time to take care of anything I can find. Here's my first question. The crankshaft end play measures .017 to .020 thousandths. Aspen's book lists .003 as a maximum for that. So is it important? what are the consequences and what to do about it?
Next up is the flywheel runnout. Watch this space.
Thanks, Rancho

Way to much end play should be no more than .006 if more it will leak, at.020 it will leak bad. Sounds like your main clearance is to much also. I think you should find some one that knows Model A engines. Have them look it over. Sounds to me like you have many problems.

 

[J and M Machine]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

Unfortunately I believe a call to your rebuilder is in order.
More often we are hearing people like yourself that have "fresh rebuilt" engines with issues that shouldn't exist. Clearly there shouldn't be a quantity of RTV in the engine.
Rancho in regard to the end play and what you mentioned about the engine loosening up sounds like the babbitt may have been improperly done. I would drop the rear main and see why there's so much end play and oil leakage.

What to do about it? let's see the pictures of the mains and rod bearings and the crankshaft surfaces and the rear main cap babbitt. then .....

 

[Model A Man]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

This is what scares me about having my motors rebuilt, spending all that money only to find out it wasn't done right. I am still holding on for the new model A motors to become available and hope they will be the answer to my prayers

 

[J and M Machine]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

This is what scares me about having my motors rebuilt, spending all that money only to find out it wasn't done right. I am still holding on for the new model A motors to become available and hope they will be the answer to my prayers

No need to be scared just be informed. Questions you should ask about the machine shop to friends that have had engines done there an actually hear them run,problems they've had ,how it was dealing with the owners,do they do all of the work there, what happens if something fails,what's covered.?

There's a clothing store which has a good saying worth mentioning here." A educated consumer is our best customer"

That says a lot of one sentence; You know what you're looking for even before you walk through the door.


We get many people that call from around the country on Model A engines and basically everyone wants to know how much?

The question should be; "What do you do differently than these others that sell the 2295-3500 specials?". We see explode after six months with poor babbitt work and dirty,cracked, full of glass beads, JB weld even.

Some people appreciate doing it once others only want cheap.

 

[George Miller]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

No need to be scared just be informed. Questions you should ask about the machine shop to friends that have had engines done there an actually hear them run,problems they've had ,how it was dealing with the owners,do they do all of the work there, what happens if something fails,what's covered.?

There's a clothing store which has a good saying worth mentioning here." A educated consumer is our best customer"

That says a lot of one sentence; You know what you're looking for even before you walk through the door.


We get many people that call from around the country on Model A engines and basically everyone wants to know how much?

The question should be; "What do you do differently than these others that sell the 2295-3500 specials?". We see explode after six months with poor babbitt work and dirty,cracked, full of glass beads, JB weld even.

Some people appreciate doing it once others only want cheap.

You said it all.

 

[Mike V. Florida]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

Unfortunately I believe a call to your rebuilder is in order.
More often we are hearing people like yourself that have "fresh rebuilt" engines with issues that shouldn't exist. Clearly there shouldn't be a quantity of RTV in the engine.
Rancho in regard to the end play and what you mentioned about the engine loosening up sounds like the babbitt may have been improperly done. I would drop the rear main and see why there's so much end play and oil leakage.

What to do about it? let's see the pictures of the mains and rod bearings and the crankshaft surfaces and the rear main cap babbitt. then .....

If you take it apart before you contact the rebuilder you will ruin any chance you have for a warrantee.

 

[Dave in MN]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

If you take it apart before you contact the rebuilder you will ruin any chance you have for a warrantee.

Mike is right on this one. Check your warranty before you act. Your proposed actions may void your warranty. If there is a problem with an engine I rebuild, I want to take it apart in my shop. I do not want to look at second-hand conditions as the possibility of discovering the true cause of a problem is greatly reduced. I would welcome any customer to attend the session of tear-down. Give the builder a chance to make it right.
Good Day!

www.durableperformance.net or www.fordmodelaengines.com

 

[Patrick L.]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

As some of the fellas mentioned, I can't see taking anything apart before talking to the rebuilder.

 

[Fred]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown (pictures)

The recent post by Fred: "New Engine 1000 miles compression test" is a question about my just-removed rebuilt engine. I have some others here and any help will be greatly appreciated. The engine has been removed after only 1000 miles to identify and fix several problems. The main one is excessive oil leakage past the rear main which has the stock slinger setup. The leak rate lost over a quart in 100 miles. After being tight to start, the motor loosened up greatly and suddenly at about 200 miles. The rear main then began to leak. There has been a ticking valve sound near #3 that could not be stopped by valve clearance adjustment. The engine sometimes delivers unusual knocking noises very briefly when started cold. Tiny amounts of water appeared in engine drain oil and radiator water consumption has been somewhat higher than expected requiring about 3 quarts refil after 100 miles or so. All these things caused some alarm and made me expect a nightmare on teardown. But the inside looks clean, good and professionally assembled so far. There is a quantity of orange RTV "sealant" oozed out of the rear main journal mating surface. The assembler had some idea there that I've never seen before and I fully expect to find the oil drain passage in the rear main to be plugged with a stray piece of that RTV. The rest is probably pretty conventional but now's the time to take care of anything I can find. Here's my first question. The crankshaft end play measures .017 to .020 thousandths. Aspen's book lists .003 as a maximum for that. So is it important? what are the consequences and what to do about it?
Next up is the flywheel runnout. Watch this space.
Thanks, Rancho

As indicated above, I've checked other measurements and also have some pictures to add to the above. Flywheel fore and aft "wobble" measures .017 in. One rod shows end play .015 inches, the rest below .012 in. The pictures show the RTV squeeze out. I will also post views of the bearing when I have it opened up. Thanks for the advice all. The expectation is still that the oil passage is blocked by a stray gob of this stuff. But the question will then be whether I can do anything about all this without having to rebabbit the engine.

Take note of picture #3, The way the rods a safety wired ??..

 

[Timberbeast]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown (pictures)

Take note of picture #3, The way the rods a safety wired ??..

Also note the rod nuts are modern lock nuts with that poor safety wiring.

 

[Rancho Deluxe]

This is an afterthought to the final picture posting. I compared the horizontal length of the journal cap babbit material to a used but original journal cap that was available from Fred. The difference is .015in. , just about the same as the excess end play in my engine. Hmm.... Rancho.

 

[Bob Johnson]

Looking at the pictures I have several concerns. The blue dye shows bearing to crank contact only on part of the bearing. That means that you have too large a gap on the other parts of the bearing which will cause a leak. I appears that there are grooves worn into the babbit and corresponding grooves in the crank. To me that might suggest that you had some babbit melt down. Was there any fine babbit powder in the oil, at the bottom of the pan? The builder was doing everything he/she could think of to prevent leaks. That is why there is all that sealant and the extra groove in the babbit. Here is my guess, yes it is just a guess. It could be that the rear main journal on the crank is a smaller diameter than the babbit bearing. That is why there were no shims and why there was only contact on the center of the bearing. All the shims had to be removed to get the clearance down. However the clearance was too tight at the center and too loose at the sides of the bearing. When the engine was run there was too much oil where the clearance was too big and not enough at the center where the clearance was too tight. Thus the bearing got too hot and melted/cracked in the center. That is my guess based on what you have shown us.

Bob

 

[tbirdtbird]

who was the builder

 

[Patrick L.]

After seeing those pictures, I don't blame you for taking it apart. I think I'd find another rebuilder and have him document everything. Include the pictures and documents and go after the rebuilder.

 

[George Miller]

You might want to check the rods and make sure they are strait with no twist. I see number 3 rod looks like the rod pin boss is touching the piston.
That will make for some noise. and why would any one use cotter keys on some rods and wire on some.

 

[J and M Machine]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

As some of the fellas mentioned, I can't see taking anything apart before talking to the rebuilder.

Patrick: I doubt the rebuilder is going to do anything with this as he's ruined it already for the customer.
I feel sorry for the customer as this is what we see in a cheap rebuild.
It's a word to the wise for everyone else.!

The hole drilled in the rear main cap and groove is a sign that they don't know what they're doing.
The amount of permatex,safety wire on self locking nuts?
The crank wasn't fit to the babbitt.
I'm sure the rods will look the same and also they probably bored the cylinders and ran a glaze buster down to make it look somewhat normal.

The reason I say this is we have two places in the next state that do the same work for 2500 seems to be going rate for poor work. If you intend on driving the car the engine will last approx 6 months.

This engine is a perfect example of what I have been trying to say here in this forum.

Know the machine shop that's doing the work ,how are they going to do the work, what are they going to do and do they have the tools to do the work properly.

 

[Fred]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

Patrick: I doubt the rebuilder is going to do anything with this as he's ruined it already for the customer.
I feel sorry for the customer as this is what we see in a cheap rebuild.
It's a word to the wise for everyone else.!

The hole drilled in the rear main cap and groove is a sign that they don't know what they're doing.
The amount of permatex,safety wire on self locking nuts?
The crank wasn't fit to the babbitt.
I'm sure the rods will look the same and also they probably bored the cylinders and ran a glaze buster down to make it look somewhat normal.

The reason I say this is we have two places in the next state that do the same work for 2500 seems to be going rate for poor work. If you intend on driving the car the engine will last approx 6 months.

This engine is a perfect example of what I have been trying to say here in this forum.

Know the machine shop that's doing the work ,how are they going to do the work, what are they going to do and do they have the tools to do the work properly.

You Don't mean RHODE ISLAND ?? NO WAY, All is on the UP in that State !!..

 

[tbirdtbird]

wanna clue us in so some other Barner doesn't end up there.....at least give the city and state

 

[Patrick L.]

Re: Rebuilt engine teardown

Patrick: I doubt the rebuilder is going to do anything with this as he's ruined it already for the customer.
I feel sorry for the customer as this is what we see in a cheap rebuild.
It's a word to the wise for everyone else.!

The hole drilled in the rear main cap and groove is a sign that they don't know what they're doing.
The amount of permatex,safety wire on self locking nuts?
The crank wasn't fit to the babbitt.
I'm sure the rods will look the same and also they probably bored the cylinders and ran a glaze buster down to make it look somewhat normal.

The reason I say this is we have two places in the next state that do the same work for 2500 seems to be going rate for poor work. If you intend on driving the car the engine will last approx 6 months.

This engine is a perfect example of what I have been trying to say here in this forum.

Know the machine shop that's doing the work ,how are they going to do the work, what are they going to do and do they have the tools to do the work properly.

See response #16. After seeing those pictures, I changed my mind. I can't believe someone would do that. Its obvious this guy/shop had no idea what they were doing and now needs to be held accountable.
In the future I'll 1 or 2 engines done. There was a good shop in this town but are now long OOB. I'm running their engines still from 1961. From where I'm located, I think you or Schwalm's will get the work.