An overheating question-the 3rd update 10/2/13

Re: An overheating question

TerryH said:
You mentioned that you flushed the radiator, but in my opinion that will not always totally clean it. My Model A had the radiator flushed and boiled out by the original owner, but it still overheated some going up hills. Another friend recommended pulling the radiator and having it rodded by someone who knew how to do it properly. I did that, and was told there was a total of about 20 tubes totally clogged up. He was able to clear almost all of them, and the car now runs without ever overheating. I would sure double check on this..........
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That's good advice!

I had ours opened up at bothe ends, rodded out and the tanks cleaned.

There was 3/4 of a cup of rusty crap in there! and thats just what he scrapped off before acid cleaning, or whatever they use. I'd already used 2 different commercial cleaners, and flushed the thing like you wouldn't believe, twice 2 weeks apart.

We used to have a small amount of bubbles push out under the radiator cap, and quite a lot of water go out the overflow. After the radiator was cleaned properly, we've never had it again.

There's something to be said for a clean system with decent coolant in there instead of rusty old water clogging everything.
 
Re: An overheating question

I have had the 'opportunity' to rod out old rad. cores. You would be amazed at the crud that is in there, especially left over from the alcohol antifreeze days of old, which can only be mechanically removed.
 
Re: An overheating question

Hi Ray,

Just thought of something from past experience -- maybe it will work, maybe it will not work.

Who would ever think of baiting catfish lines with cotton balls cooked in garlic & melted cheese so the bait on the hook could not be easily removed by nibbling catfish -- nothing works until we try.

Maybe thoroughly cleaning a radiator while it is "still in the car".

Never tried this method below; but, if I ever had a Model A overheating problem I would definitely try it -- I already thoroughly cleaned my gas tank in a similar manner with a pump.

Totally clogged gravity flow domestic drain pipes can also be cleaned with water pressure to increase erosion with rapid flowing water.

Anyway:

1. Some time ago went to pressure wash the exterior of a house that had been disconnected from the main water supply.

2. Asked if we could use neighbor's water supply & pay for any water bill increase.

3. Pressure washed house -- pressure low at first, but pressure increased as time went on.

4. Came by next day to try to pay Lady next door -- she actually wanted to pay me -- she said her house had galvanized domestic plumbing since 1930 -- (about same time as Model A time) -- she said before we came, it took her one-half hour to fill her bath tub; but, since we cleaned her water pipes in about an hour yesterday with our water pump, she could fill her tub in one (1) minute -- plus toilet bowls re-filled rapidly and dishwasher & washing machine worked great for the first time.

5. Have seen this same problem often with heavy mineral deposits in domestic water pipes over time -- 80 year old radiators are no different -- just think -- this build up of deposits in water pipes in houses is caused by circulating clear, potable water without Model A water pump grease.

I would try this:

A. Get two (2) Model A hoses & connect one at top & one at bottom of the radiator with hose clamps.

B. Make a tight fitting wood plug for each hose to seal both open hose ends & clamp both.

C. On the bottom wood plug, drill a hole & screw in a 3/4" PVC or galvanized pipe nipple & connect same to a water hose connected to the inlet side of a water pump.

D. Provide a water hose connected to the outlet side of the water pump & provide a lint filter or cotton sock on the other end to dump recirculated, "strained" pumped liquid into the top of the radiator -- place a large headed nail in the radiator's overflow pipe.

E. Prepare a mixture of domestic hot water with POR 15 Marine Clean -- 1 part MC to 3 parts Hot water, pour in radiator & start pump to circulate mixture through radiator.

F. Rather than having gravity flow trickling downward through tubes, in this manner one could create a much greater forced suction at the bottom of the radiator to greatly increase the flow of water in tubes.

G. After about 2-1/2 hours or so of pumping, or longer, disconnect pump, drain & save this filtered MC liquid for another day or another cleaning use.

H. Next , connect pump inlet to a pressured domestic water line hose bibb & connect pump outlet to the bottom radiator hose & allow pump to reverse flow clear water upwards with increased pressure from the pump, (plus domestic water pressure) & allow water to exit out of the top radiator hose after the radiator top hose wood plug has been removed -- place sock at end of top hose just see if anything came out.

I. Think the pump for my earlier Bizarre Gas Tank Cleaning 101 was about $35.00 at Amazon.com with free shipping -- still have it.

J. Anything out of the ordinary is always fun whether it works or not.

Hope this can help someone some day.
 
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Re: An overheating question

Hi Ray, a properly flowing radiator will drain within 3 seconds. Disconnect the hoses, seal off inlet and outlet of rad. Whatever you use on the outlet should be easily removed. Fill rad with water, dump it and if you get to the "one thousand three" count, you rad is plugged enough to get some over heating. I've used a small sponge rubber ball to seal the bottom outlet with one hand, and had help or just used the garden hose with the other to fill. Rodding seems to be the only reliable way to bring back a rad.
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

Today's update, 9/21/13: I ran Pictou's advice and the radiator drained fine. There was some fine rust in the upper tank, so I flushed and back-flushed both the radiator and the block, individually, until I got clear water running everywhere, which didn't require much flushing at all. I'll drive it now for a couple days and see if I can make it overheat. I think it probably will, because I still think the problem is in the head, either not flat and sealing properly, or rust in the water jackets that will require manual removal or chemical dipping. I might try Evapo-rust.
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

700rpm said:
Bill: No, I didn't, and that's what makes me think that is the root of my troubles.
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Ray, been there done that! Most every time I thought I could "get away" with it, it bit me in the butt!
Chief always told me, "Don't patch it, it'll come back to haunt you! Patchin' is only to get back home to supper"! But did I always listen to him??? You know how smart assed kids are!!! Bill W.
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

BILL WILLIAMSON said:
Ray, been there done that! Most every time I thought I could "get away" with it, it bit me in the butt!
Chief always told me, "Don't patch it, it'll come back to haunt you! Patchin' is only to get back home to supper"! But did I always listen to him??? You know how smart assed kids are!!! Bill W.
Click to expand...

I just neglected to do it because prior to disassembly there was no overheating problem. But the head was sealed with some kind of super adhesive, and looking back now I think that was done by the previous owner to, as you say, patch it. The head will come off this week though, and be resurfaced and installed with (another) new gasket.
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

Hi Ray,

As parochial & basic as this may appear, did you check to see if your water pump is pumping a steady flow into your top radiator tank -- Why?

Possible pinned or pressed on impeller on water pump shaft may be slipping & not turning fast enough; hence not pumping enough.
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

The side curved pans from the oil pan to the frame are needed for proper cooling of the engine. Are they installed?
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

Henry: I didn't check that, but will do it when I take the head off. Good suggestion.

Tom: Yup. Pans are installed.
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

H. L. Chauvin said:
Hi Ray,

As parochial & basic as this may appear, did you check to see if your water pump is pumping a steady flow into your top radiator tank -- Why?

Possible pinned or pressed on impeller on water pump shaft may be slipping & not turning fast enough; hence not pumping enough.
Click to expand...

Henry: I checked that today, and the water seems to circulate as it should. When I take the head off I'll also check the pump.
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

Hi Ray,

Greatly admire your most sincere persistence & reporting what you are finding while also patiently educating all of us.

A thorough investigation & a sharp mind is always a good thing to detect unique problems.

One never knows what one will find in an 80 year old Model A gas tank, radiator, oil pan, inside of an engine head, or what ever -- old unrestored vintage vehicles are almost like visiting houses that are supposedly haunted .

An interesting endless discussion could be started with a question like:

What is the strangest thing ever found under a Model A hood?
 
Re: An overheating question-a minor update

I pulled the head today. There were large flakes of rust apparent in the head and block, as well as minor greaser accumulation. I think the grease is from over-lubricating the water pump. I am going to put some Evapo-Rust in the head and block this week to address the rust problem. I may have the head boiled out as well. But removing the head revealed another problem: carbon buildup. Could the overheating cause the carbon buildup, or would the carbon cause the overheating? This stuff mystifies me. (see photos on my carbon buildup: http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?p=735738#post735738 )

By the way, the head and block are flat.

Henry: The water pump looks like a recent replacement and seems to work as it should, although the collar was not holding the shaft forward, but rather allowing it to move back and forth by about a 1/4". I fixed that.
 
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Re: An overheating question-a second minor update

i would have the head cut regardless, you can be fooled.....a minimal expense....
 
Re: An overheating question-a second minor update

Ray--Earlier you mentioned that you had the timing right, by your experience, but now keep the lever at 9 o'clock....after having babbit problems running full advance for years. My Model A has the Snyder 5.5 HC and mine runs just fine at 9 o'clock at normal speeds and almost full advance at 60-65 (in overdrive). With a stock head, you still might be slightly retarded at 9 o'clock. You also might try something in-between 9 and full advance. If it is slightly retarded, that could be part of your problem..............
 
Re: An overheating question-a second minor update

I just reread the original post and wonder if you don't still have rust flakes blocking some tubes. 30 days of driving with pure white vinegar removed a lot of rust for me, but a year later (2 weeks ago) the sump pump flush really did the trick for me. Here is my recent post about how I did it. Right now I'm running more vinegar and will drain it and give the block and radiator one more sump pump flush, just to be sure it's super clean inside, then I'll use 50/50 antifreeze.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117753
 
Re: An overheating question-a second minor update

For the techie/sci guys, Tom's vinegar flush works like this:

Vinegar (acetic acid CH3COOH) reacts with rust (Fe2O3 n H2O) like this:
6 CH3COOH + 3 Fe2O3nH2O --> 6 Fe(CH3COO)3 + 3 02 + nH2O
The iron (III) acetate Fe(CH3COO)3 is water soluble.

You will never get enough acetic acid in your cooling system to actually turn all the rust to a soluble acetate, but the action undermines the surface metal bond of heavy accumulations, causing them to flake off.

Some of the iron III acetate will adhere to the fresh, clean iron surface temporarily protecting it from further oxidation
If the concentration of iron III acetate reaches it's saturation point it will form a black slimy goo and you will need to use an ionic detergent to remove it.
 
Re: An overheating question-a second minor update

MikeK said:
For the techie/sci guys, Tom's vinegar flush works like this:

Vinegar (acetic acid CH3COOH) reacts with rust (Fe2O3 n H2O) like this:
6 CH3COOH + 3 Fe2O3nH2O --> 6 Fe(CH3COO)3 + 3 02 + nH2O
The iron (III) acetate Fe(CH3COO)3 is water soluble.

You will never get enough acetic acid in your cooling system to actually turn all the rust to a soluble acetate, but the action undermines the surface metal bond of heavy accumulations, causing them to flake off.

Some of the iron III acetate will adhere to the fresh, clean iron surface temporarily protecting it from further oxidation
If the concentration of iron III acetate reaches it's saturation point it will form a black slimy goo and you will need to use an ionic detergent to remove it.
Click to expand...

I think my Tudor has reached that point. I planned to drain and flush today. What do you suggest for an "ionic detergent"?
 
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