What stops the fire?

Roadster62 said:
For the sake of discussion I'll believe the above, another question is direction. This is about Model A's I'm sure every other car is different and don't want to go there. Is the electricity in an Model A PUSHED or PULLED? Can the direction be traced? The ground symbol has always confused me, it just looks like it is a discarded unwanted item even though it is needed. Bob
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It really doesn't matter, and you didn't mention pushed or pulled from which battery terminal.:confused: All you have to know is that the current flows when it has a complete path from one terminal to the other, and when it flows it can be converted to do work, either as light, heat, or torque, as in turning the stater armature.

You want to be even more confused......... ask someone if the vacuum cleaner sucks up dirt.:D
It really doesn't. The dirt is being pushed into the bag by air pressure.:D
 
Roadster62 said:
P.S and REdington, may be correct I just don't know which one is. Bob
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I understand your confusion I really do. Schematics drawings and symbols are drawn pos to neg but the actual electrons move neg to pos.

Ever gone to the carnival? Have you seen the chasing lights on the rides? If you look at the lit bulbs the light appears to go one way but if you look at the bulbs that are out they appear to move the other way.

Electricity is the same way. Are you following the electrons or the holes they leave behind.

I have always read drawings and figures out paths pos to neg. While technically wrong the bottom line is that it works either way.

Lets say you follow a wire from the neg side and "bump" into a bulb. The side you "bumped" into is the neg side the other side of the bulb is the positive side. Following the wire to another bulb that side is neg and the other side is pos and so on, neg, pos, neg, pos.
 
P.S. is correct REdington has reversed the electron flow. I like to think that there is an excess of electrons on the negative post and a lack of electrons on the positive post. Therefore, the electrons want to flow from neg to Pos. The modern way of thinking which is actually wrong if you think of electron flow, is that the flow is from pos. to neg. Why the thinking of Pos to Neg became popular is a mystery to me.
 
Current measured in Amps is the number of electrons which pass a point in a certain amount of time. Electrons are negatively charged. There is an excess of electrons on the minus side of the battery and they want to migrate toward the positive to get to a state of equilibrium. In a Model A the electrons flow from the negative terminal of the battery through the starter when starting and back through the metal of the vehicle to the positive terminal of the battery. After starting the generator or alternator pushes the electrons back into the battery thus charging the battery through a chemical reaction that pushes electrons onto one plate of the battery and reduces the number of electrons on the other plate called the positive plate. Just trying to put in simple terms.
 
So far this is a picture I can understand, are there electrons that are "killed" or lost on this massive attack on the starter, or to they all return safely to the battery? Bob
jrelliott said:
Current measured in Amps is the number of electrons which pass a point in a certain amount of time. Electrons are negatively charged. There is an excess of electrons on the minus side of the battery and they want to migrate toward the positive to get to a state of equilibrium. In a Model A the electrons flow from the negative terminal of the battery through the starter when starting and back through the metal of the vehicle to the positive terminal of the battery. After starting the generator or alternator pushes the electrons back into the battery thus charging the battery through a chemical reaction that pushes electrons onto one plate of the battery and reduces the number of electrons on the other plate called the positive plate. Just trying to put in simple terms.
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I don't know anything about that stuff or figure that its important to me . I can wire my model A, make it run negative or positive ground, six or twelve volt. I wired my house and shop.
 
As long as the Electrolight (acid mixture) is up to par, the Electrons are created upon demand at the negative side.
 
Roadster62 said:
For the sake of discussion I'll believe the above, another question is direction. This is about Model A's I'm sure every other car is different and don't want to go there. Is the electricity in an Model A PUSHED or PULLED? Can the direction be traced? The ground symbol has always confused me, it just looks like it is a discarded unwanted item even though it is needed. Bob
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Roadster62 said:
Ok, so there is a given number of the electrons in the system running around, what has happened when you find your Model A has a "Dead" battery? Bob
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All atoms are born with the same numbers of electrons and protons, so they are neutral. BUT, they are all in a ceaseless tug-of-war with their neighbors for more electrons. In a battery, different chemicals are cleverly arranged so that if an external conductive path is provided, electrons can travel from the less greedy to the more greedy. Along the way, they may be persuaded to light a light bulb or turn a motor, etc. The external path may be wiring or sheet metal. The terminal where the electrons leave the reaction mixture to begin their external adventure is the "negative" terminal.

Voltage is a measure of how much lower energy the electrons are in one place than another, i.e., how badly they want to get from one place to another. Amperage, or current, is a measure of how much charge actually moves in unit of time.

When a battery is discharging, the electrons are being pulled by the greedier atoms in the battery's chemical reactant mixture. In a dead battery, the chemical reaction has gone to completion--the greedy atoms have grabbed all of the electrons they can from their less greedy neighbors.

The electrons don't pile up anywhere (except slightly in condensers or capacitors), and they are not discarded--electrical neutrality must be maintained everywhere.

When a battery is being charged, electrons are being magnetically BOTH PUSHED back where they came from and PULLED away from the greedier atoms.

Einstein said that it's important that explanations be as simple as possible, but no simpler. I've tried to comply with this ideal.

I hope this helps.

Steve
 
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Really all you need to think about is electricity fas to flow in a circuit (loop) really makes no differance as long as it flows.
 
Dog:cool:here, Yo, REdington, you draw GOOD, I could draw iffin' I had thumbs!
Here's how it is: Chief tole' Bill & Bill Tole' me. There's a gazillion uf them little electrical "men" in the fat cable at the starter, jist waitin' to wurk, only a few uf them can go in the little wire to do other wurk, cuz them other jobs are easy!!
Chief wuren't NO EINSTEIN, but he tole' Bill & Bill tole' me, that them little "men" always ran frum (+) positive to (-) negative, cuz you have to have SOMETHING (+) to go to NOTHING (-) Buster T.:cool:
(OH! Chief wuz Ol' Bill's Dad:))
 
Bill, your "information" is wrong and your comedy routine is getting tiresome. If you had taken the time to read the previous posts you would have learned that electron flow goes from negative to positive.
 
modeleh said:
Bill, your "information" is wrong and your comedy routine is getting tiresome. If you had taken the time to read the previous posts you would have learned that electron flow goes from negative to positive.
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Well, EXCUUUUUSE me! Damn, just havin' a little fun. (And, YES, I DID read all the previous posts, I DO read quite well, thank you.) Bill W. & Dog:cool:
 
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Roadster62 said:
Yes, but the small yellow wire is attached to that battery cable, so why isn't it being fried?
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I skimmed through the posts and didn't catch (or missed) anything that directly answered your question.

It's not like the current is under pressure as with water in your pipes or garden hose with a closed hose end sprayer. It's essentially a supply line that does nothing unless drawn upon more like the gas in your tank goes nowhere unless you run the engine and draw upon the supply (or leak it onto the floor :D).

The wires in any proper electrical system are specifically sized to (at a minimum) supply the current DRAWN by all items within the specific circuit. Those items determine the maximum current flow under proper operating conditions.
 
Hi Bob,

Your electrical questions are most interesting on electricity which we cannot see.

If it appears confusing to understand positive (+) ground, negative (-) ground, electricity pushed or pulled, AC, DC, current flow, your jigawatts, hot wires, ground wires, atoms, electrons, etc., maybe think of your Model A electrical system like an organized Male/Female marriage.

1. Unprotected Male: Compare ground to the Male, whether (+) or (-) ground. The ground in not insulated, hence, "unprotected", like your battery ground cable. Because the Male ground cable is connected to the "un-insulated" & "unprotected" exposed metal frame, transmission, engine, etc., all exposed metal is ground & can be considered as an unprotected Male.

2. Protected Hot Female: Compare the insulated & "protected" hot battery cable & hot insulated & "protected" wires, whether (+) or (-), to a protected Hot Female.

3. If the "protected" Hot Female does not touch the "unprotected" Male or vice versa, there are no sparks flying, no excitement, no heat generated; however, if the Hot Female touches the Male, or vice versa, sparks fly & heat is generated. The ammeter can be thought of as a Male/Female excitement meter that monitors the Hot Female touching the Male or vice versa, whereby the ammeter measures the excitement level in amps charging or discharging.

4. The 12 gauge "yellow" wire you mention is an insulated "protected" Hot Female. It connects to other Hot Female wires at the junction box & branches out to things such as light bulbs, coils, switches etc., etc.; however, when the car is not running, & with ignition switch & light switch "OFF", the Hot Female is not touching the Male. For this touching & excitement to occur, the Model A driver has to "make" the Hot Female touch the grounded Male through a switch -- either a light switch, brake switch, ignition switch, or a starter switch.

5. When one hits the starter switch, the wide Hot Female copper spring in the starter switch touches the Male "well" grounded starter. The Male grounded starter is full of metal coils & "well" grounded; hence, there is lots of excitement -- the Hot Female battery cable gets warm, but does not fry because it is large enough to handle this big excitement & connection between the Male & Female.

6. Getting back to the small Hot Female Yellow wire. Look at any Model A light bulb. When the owner creates a "turn-on" at the switch, the Hot Female touches the Male at the light -- but look "inside" the light bulb & you will see an extremely fine wire filament; hence the Hot Female touches the Male very, very lightly through this thin wire filament, so it is more of a slight tickle as opposed the big huge grab that happened at the starter. Because of this Female light touch, "not" nearly as much excitement, so with a very, very light touch, not much heat, & a much smaller wire can handle this Hot Female/Male encounter.

7. In summary, when the starter switch is depressed. the Hot Female touches & grabs the well grounded Male starter with great vigor; hence a large battery cable is required. But when starting a Model A the yellow Hot Female wire is only tickling the ignition switch, coil, & points on the other end; hence, the yellow wire does not get hot enough to fry.

I tried.

Maybe a marriage counselor can add some sentences to explain this Model A electrical mystery.

Hope this helps.
 
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