I don't think you can fairly pass off people that are into the finer aspects of restoration, and choose to get together with others with the same interests, as egoists. I absolutely can appreciate a finely restored anything, Model A or tractor or piece of furniture. And I am no damn egoist.
Fine Point vs. Touring Class
- Thread starter 31Tudor
- Start date
Ken Ehrenhofer
Well-known member
I am not sure where this idea of the high cost of restoring a fine point car comes from but I think it is unjustified.
You can build a MARC of Excellence for a reasonable amount of money if you do the work your self.
Or maybe even farm some of it out. You can still get a MARC of E if you have a Lebaron Bonney interior.
All you need is 400 points.
Yes, you will have to do more hunting at parts swaps to find correct parts but when you do find them they will fit and look better on your car. Yes, you will need to read the books and study and find some help in the club to learn all about how to do it but this is part of the fun.
Recently a friend of mine restored a tudor and won a MARC of Excellence and he had invested $15,000 in the car. After showing and getting the MARC of E he is now driving the car. It is not much harder than restoring a driver and the result is a much better car to drive.
RockHillWill
Well-known member
There is no LOGICAL reason for 500 points for the Touring Class. The closest thing that I can come up with is that it was easier to change the scoring than to increase the effort. Because the Fine Point scoring was at 500 points first, it appears to be both disrespectful and illogical for a subsequent group to assume similar recognition for dissimilar effort. I have heard ‘rumors’ that legal clarification is being discussed by those that have purchased ‘high point’ cars under the assumption that they were Fine Point cars because of the nationally recognized 500 point system. This disparity needs to be addressed shortly. The folks responsible about our legal concerns have apparently over looked this issue. Additionally, this coagulation of the 500 point systems has had a negative effect on the selling prices of those cars that have achieved legitimate Fine Point status, and I can foresee legal issues resulting from that as well.
I am further perplexed by the logic involved in allowing cars entered in the ‘Touring Class’ that allowed to be brought in on trailers and many of these cars having less than a few thousand miles on them. The ability to have multiple winners with perfect scores would seem to indicate a lack of actual difficulty in achievement. I would like to see a more concerted effort between the Touring Class and the Fine Point group to establish a working relationship that would permit those wanting to continue to improve their cars authenticity to have some consistency in upward mobility.
My initially reason for joining Model A RESTORERS Club is as follows: They are one of the two largest Model A clubs in the country, and the only one with ‘restorer’ in their name. We are located in the same city and state as the manufacturer of the object of our desire, the Model A Ford, and we have unparalleled access to the technical data that was used during the time of their manufacturer. The provider of that technical information was Henry Ford, the single largest contributor to the Industrial Revolution in the greatest country in the free world. When a Fine Point car has been completed to the highest order, it is not only a nice Model A restoration, but a well documented and authentic piece of American History bordering on being a National Treasure. It is unclear as to why folks seem to be determined to write these cars off as a whim of eccentric restorers.
I have personally witnessed the giant amount of effort on the part of both national clubs to acquire, sort and present this information. (Additionally, we need to make original parts more available for both research validation and restoration, by the advocacy of more flea markets).
MARC has the technical wealth, the intellectual stealth and the mental health to put forward a national program called 500 STEPS TO HISTORY. Anyone is welcome to join and land on ANY of the steps they feel comfortable with (there should be a place for EVERYONE) and if they are inclined at any time to climb up the steps, there is abundant help available.
From my perspective as an active member of the Judging Standards Committee, I have been approached by at least two folks that had acquired one of these 490+ Touring Cars, only to discover that upon closer inspection it was not ‘Fine Point’ quality, and was accusing us (the JSC) of being less than talented for awarding that many points to a car of this caliber. It was awkward for me to try and explain that it was NOT the JSC that did that judging in a manner that was not disrespectful to the Touring Class folks. The answer to the follow up question was even more difficult to answer. That question that ALWAYS follows is: What is the reasoning or logic behind awarding similar points for dissimilar restorations. I still have no answer for that. The intentional naming of the awards to be similar to the Fine Point awards contribute to the confusion and does not lead you to think that this decision was made by clear thinking adults.
I was involved with the JSC for over 12 years, and can truthfully say that no one associated with that group has ever spent any time accusing anyone doing any form of restoration, that was ‘non-Fine Point’ of being lazy or having small testicles, but rather have expressed the desire to assist ANYONE that wants to restore ANY Model A to ANY condition. Use of the Restoration Guidelines will actually result in an easier effort in restoring a Model A to any level. It is the desire for those folks on or around the JSC group to make efforts to blend the two judging arenas in a manner that there can be a smooth transition from one group to the next, as opposed to having to choose one over the other.
If you have a Model A, it is yours to enjoy in any manner that you wish. If you want to park it outside under a tree and watch the oxygen be absorbed, or restore it to Fine Point quality, you have the right to choose and proceed, but for those with the courage and dedication to climb towards the top of the ladder, it would seem disingenuous for those part way up that ladder to shake it because they themselves are afraid of heights.
Consider the words of Vince Lombardi: “approach your goals with the relentless pursuit of perfection, knowing full well that perfection is not obtainable, but in the pursuit of perfection you will pass thru excellence”
RockHillWill
Well-known member
Here is a similar analogy.
A story about misplaced intellect and lack of logic
One county in central Iowa was known for having superior quality corn fields that produced stalks that were both healthy and tall. Some folks became envious, but most folks were curious as to what made this part of the country so prolific in producing such elegant corn stalks that grew nice and green while producing an elegant yellow core.
Many parts of the country had similar ground and soil conditions and heralded suitable climates conducive to similarly productive crop growth. After much study and review, it was determined that the primary condition responsible for this unusually high quality growth of corn was not the location, soil or weather conditions, but a rather rag-tag group of gentlemen with one common interest, and that was the discovery and preservation of all things needed to produce high quality corn. Their goal was neither profit nor notoriety, but merely to become the most knowledgeable corn growers in the country.
As word began to spread about their success, others became enthused about learning how to grow tall corn for their own fields and this group of gentlemen, interested in sharing their knowledge with all that were interested, welcomed them to their yearly meetings, where they shared their research, experiences and had a friendly competition in an effort to continue the goal of making corn grow healthy and taller, which had the residual effect of raising the known quality of this corn and thereby the prices for it’s consumption began to rise. For their comparisons of the growth rates, they chose a tall stick, higher than the current crops of corn to present a goal encourage competition, and they inscribed 500 marks on it.
The gentlemen were happy to share their ‘secrets’. They told of how they spent time at the town library, gathering planting, fertilizing and watering details, where they learned of the correct seeds to plant and when to till the soil. They learned to get up early in the morning to till while the soil was moist, and they would travel across several counties to obtain a little higher quality of fertilizer. They spent time some evenings picking out both large and small rocks that displaced both fertilizer and water, hindering the corn’s growth.
Those in attendance were suitably impressed with these gentlemen’s ability to grow the tall, healthy corn and would go home, intending to improve their own fields in an effort to increase their own quality and thus increase the value of their crop.
But there were a number of those in attendance that, while desirous of the better quality and the higher prices, were not willing to do the additional work required to measure up to the tall corn growers reputation, so they merely decided to go out and get a shorter ‘stick’ and put their own 500 marks on it, thus giving an outsider the opinion that they also had the high quality corn and sought a comparable selling price.
While the hard working corn growers were aware of this disdainful and deceitful practice, they were still primarily interested in preserving the finest quality of tall and colorful corn, seeking only the reward inherent in the completion of a project that results from knowing that you did ALL that you could do to accomplish the goal.
But an unseen and ignored consequence of this practice was that while the higher quality corn was still available, in an increasingly smaller number, the more common practice of marketing the lesser quality corn, was that the lack of quality did not go unnoticed by the consumer, and the demand for the lesser quality corn decreased and therefore the price of corn fell across the board.
Just as in the old saying “a rising tide raises all ships”, a receding tide leaves many boats in the mud.
By lowering goals, you lower expectations, and you get just what you expect!
The Price of Corn
A story about misplaced intellect and lack of logic
One county in central Iowa was known for having superior quality corn fields that produced stalks that were both healthy and tall. Some folks became envious, but most folks were curious as to what made this part of the country so prolific in producing such elegant corn stalks that grew nice and green while producing an elegant yellow core.
Many parts of the country had similar ground and soil conditions and heralded suitable climates conducive to similarly productive crop growth. After much study and review, it was determined that the primary condition responsible for this unusually high quality growth of corn was not the location, soil or weather conditions, but a rather rag-tag group of gentlemen with one common interest, and that was the discovery and preservation of all things needed to produce high quality corn. Their goal was neither profit nor notoriety, but merely to become the most knowledgeable corn growers in the country.
As word began to spread about their success, others became enthused about learning how to grow tall corn for their own fields and this group of gentlemen, interested in sharing their knowledge with all that were interested, welcomed them to their yearly meetings, where they shared their research, experiences and had a friendly competition in an effort to continue the goal of making corn grow healthy and taller, which had the residual effect of raising the known quality of this corn and thereby the prices for it’s consumption began to rise. For their comparisons of the growth rates, they chose a tall stick, higher than the current crops of corn to present a goal encourage competition, and they inscribed 500 marks on it.
The gentlemen were happy to share their ‘secrets’. They told of how they spent time at the town library, gathering planting, fertilizing and watering details, where they learned of the correct seeds to plant and when to till the soil. They learned to get up early in the morning to till while the soil was moist, and they would travel across several counties to obtain a little higher quality of fertilizer. They spent time some evenings picking out both large and small rocks that displaced both fertilizer and water, hindering the corn’s growth.
Those in attendance were suitably impressed with these gentlemen’s ability to grow the tall, healthy corn and would go home, intending to improve their own fields in an effort to increase their own quality and thus increase the value of their crop.
But there were a number of those in attendance that, while desirous of the better quality and the higher prices, were not willing to do the additional work required to measure up to the tall corn growers reputation, so they merely decided to go out and get a shorter ‘stick’ and put their own 500 marks on it, thus giving an outsider the opinion that they also had the high quality corn and sought a comparable selling price.
While the hard working corn growers were aware of this disdainful and deceitful practice, they were still primarily interested in preserving the finest quality of tall and colorful corn, seeking only the reward inherent in the completion of a project that results from knowing that you did ALL that you could do to accomplish the goal.
But an unseen and ignored consequence of this practice was that while the higher quality corn was still available, in an increasingly smaller number, the more common practice of marketing the lesser quality corn, was that the lack of quality did not go unnoticed by the consumer, and the demand for the lesser quality corn decreased and therefore the price of corn fell across the board.
Just as in the old saying “a rising tide raises all ships”, a receding tide leaves many boats in the mud.
By lowering goals, you lower expectations, and you get just what you expect!
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jkcrosson
Well-known member
It seems every time a touring class versus fine points dialog comes up, it becomes them versus us. Lets face it, it is the guys doing the fine point restorations that have paved the way for most the information available to us today. Let's look at how much information is known about the model a that is available at my fingertips without digging back through Ford archives to find. I think some of this separation would go away if one requirement was added to touring class qualification. Every touring class car should be a previous fine point contestant. That way, everyone interested in points would be aiming for the same goal during restoration. That idea is the same as Ken mentioned in a previous post. jm2c.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
I fail to see your logic ...but maybe you are seeking sympathy? If that is the case, you have mine.
Many of us have started with 'junk', -either because we could not find better, or could not afford better, but nonetheless we made do. We had a goal in mind and sought after that goal. Some folks need help along the way to achieve that goal. No harm or shame in that. The point that has been made here is 'do your best' and if you truly do so, then there should be no shame in that.
.
Jim Mason
Well-known member
Interesting. You claim that the stuff is so bad is can't be described. How do you know that? oh, wait you can compare it to a fine point or touring class car and the RESTORATION GUIDELINES and judging standards (RGjs). You also say they look good. compared to...what...oh, that's right touring class,fine point and rgjs? no your own opinion.
You seem to be judging your own car and workmanship not to the work of others (fine point and touring)but your own 'standards'...self absorbed egotist. BTW, setting you own standard is fine, just don't insult the rest that chose a national standard. Let the 'oxygen absorb' it, load it with parts to bad to describe, take it to touring, fine point, nothing. It really doesn't matter to me, but please stop insulting me.
Re read Will's comments. Set your own goals, make sure it's a stretch. If you set a 5% goal, you'll get 5% results. Set a 90% or 100% goal and see how much you can achieve.
Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
Your right, let's close down all the restoration shops. Cars, trains, planes, whatever, close them down!!! Who cares what the stuff looks like, burn it all!!! Close the museum's, shut down the Smithsonian's. All that work is just for egotists!! Nobody cares for history. Good enough is now the law of the land!!!
Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
Yes Jim, very true response. I guess since you said " So it depends on what you want high points in a less rigorous scoring or lower points in a very rigorous judging. ", then I guess it really is about the points.
I have to agree with Jim. It is all about the points. Points given as compared to a list of standards. Different standards can give the same points but they are not equal. If a local club has a judging event and uses the 500 point system and the car scores 400 points it is not the same as 400 points at a national event.
We are losing the forest for the trees in this thread. "...to give national recognition to those authentic appearing and well maintained Model As that are regularly driven to shows, club events, public interest, and for the general pleasure of the owner." Touring is not the same as fine point. Will there be those that want a trophy so bad that they will enter a "fine point" car in touring class, hell yea, there are assholes every where they fool no one but themselves.
Purdy Swoft
Well-known member
No need to close down the restoration shops. Some people like to fix up their on model A, nether are necessarily perfectly original. There is also no need to try and FORCE all model A's to be perfectly correct. Mine only have to please me, Its still a free country in some ways.
Jim Mason
Well-known member
hmm...I don't think you took Mikes comment as he intended it. I could be wrong...as to Mikes comment see:
sar•casm (ˈsɑr kæz əm)
n. 1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark.
[1570–80; < Late Latin sarcasmus < Greek sarkasmós, derivative of sarkázein to rend (flesh), sneer; see sarco-]
Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
Nobody here in this thread tried to "... FORCE all model A's to be perfectly correct."
Building a car for judging is for those with sense of history, a desire to do things to the best of their abilities and have it looked at by people who will compare it with perhaps hundreds of other cars they have seen in the past and let you know how you did. With that information one can be happy with what they did or maybe go that little extra and see if they can make an improvement.
Touring class is to recognize those with older restorations, older fine point cars and even original cars. Cars like Fred's Henry award winners, can still be recognized for the work he did in the past the care taken over the years to keep it that way. Touring class can be used as a starting point for those that would like to know what is right and wrong with there car before that make the move to "create" a fine point car like Jerry of Whidbey.
I get the reason for touring class, but make a blanket statement that all judging is for egotists, those that are "..arrogant and boastful with a grandiose sense of their own importance" is just plain false!
MARC was formed in 1952 with the purpose to “encourage its members to acquire, preserve, restore, exhibit, and make use of the Model “A” Ford”. There are several levels of restoration related to these activities. “The “Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards” were developed through the efforts of the Judging Standards Committee and others. By reading and talking with other restorers, our members can decide what level of restoration they wish to achieve, meeting the 14 point requirement, regular restoration, or Fine Point Judging.
The Fine Point Class is the backbone of our club while Touring Class is our body. One without the other would not be beneficial to our common interest, The Model “A” Ford.
Fine Point vehicles can be restored to the level of MARC of Excellence without a much greater expense than a regular restoration. In both cases it depends on what the individual can do. Henry Cars have been restored by owners taking the LeBaron Bonney kit apart and sewing it themselves. MARC of Excellence vehicles have been also driven to Tacoma and back and to the National Meet where they have received the award.
Using the same Standards judging Touring Class in Tacoma at the Joint meet in 1994 was just too difficult. They were just not restored to the same degree of originality. MARC also had been talking about having a Touring Class. Being a board member at that time I pushed to start it at our 1995 National in Pheasant Run but not by the same guidelines. This was approved by the BOD. Thus Touring Class began with an evolving set of standards and we have what it is today. Simply put the Model has a set of four shock absorbers, arms and tubes. In Fine Point they must be original and assembled correctly to the time of the production of the vehicle. In Touring you can have one shock, arm and tube from each year and assembled with each having a different part from each year. Reproduction parts are also accepted. I do not have a problem with that.
The purpose of Touring Class was to give an opportunity for the recognition of these cars without the stringent requirements of fine point judging. It was to be associated with our Driving Awards Program. The only drawback is a few of these vehicles are occasionally represented by their owners as 500 point, MARC of Excellence winners in “For Sale” ads. There can be a wide difference in value.
Regions provide our members with the opportunity to drive their Model A to events two or three times a month depending on their location. Some, as in Michigan, have driving events like the yearly Michigan Roundup. We still have a core of members that like participating in the yearly National Meets and enjoy all the events. The Swap Meet at the National provides the best opportunity to find parts needed for any level of restoration. In both local and national meets, we are drawn by a common interest and enjoy friends we only may see a couple of times a year. I like traveling to different parts of our great country.
There is nothing like driving an “A”. In AZ, I drive my Briggs Town Sedan two or three times a week. I have enjoyed restoring vehicles for both driving and Fine Point.
My wife always knows where I am.
The Fine Point Class is the backbone of our club while Touring Class is our body. One without the other would not be beneficial to our common interest, The Model “A” Ford.
Fine Point vehicles can be restored to the level of MARC of Excellence without a much greater expense than a regular restoration. In both cases it depends on what the individual can do. Henry Cars have been restored by owners taking the LeBaron Bonney kit apart and sewing it themselves. MARC of Excellence vehicles have been also driven to Tacoma and back and to the National Meet where they have received the award.
Using the same Standards judging Touring Class in Tacoma at the Joint meet in 1994 was just too difficult. They were just not restored to the same degree of originality. MARC also had been talking about having a Touring Class. Being a board member at that time I pushed to start it at our 1995 National in Pheasant Run but not by the same guidelines. This was approved by the BOD. Thus Touring Class began with an evolving set of standards and we have what it is today. Simply put the Model has a set of four shock absorbers, arms and tubes. In Fine Point they must be original and assembled correctly to the time of the production of the vehicle. In Touring you can have one shock, arm and tube from each year and assembled with each having a different part from each year. Reproduction parts are also accepted. I do not have a problem with that.
The purpose of Touring Class was to give an opportunity for the recognition of these cars without the stringent requirements of fine point judging. It was to be associated with our Driving Awards Program. The only drawback is a few of these vehicles are occasionally represented by their owners as 500 point, MARC of Excellence winners in “For Sale” ads. There can be a wide difference in value.
Regions provide our members with the opportunity to drive their Model A to events two or three times a month depending on their location. Some, as in Michigan, have driving events like the yearly Michigan Roundup. We still have a core of members that like participating in the yearly National Meets and enjoy all the events. The Swap Meet at the National provides the best opportunity to find parts needed for any level of restoration. In both local and national meets, we are drawn by a common interest and enjoy friends we only may see a couple of times a year. I like traveling to different parts of our great country.
There is nothing like driving an “A”. In AZ, I drive my Briggs Town Sedan two or three times a week. I have enjoyed restoring vehicles for both driving and Fine Point.
My wife always knows where I am.
RockHillWill
Well-known member
Gary, it is people like you and Hunter Fanney (and others) that are prime examples of why Fine Point judging is an obtainable goal for those that are willing to set that as a goal and apply constant work and dedicated research over a period of time in a effort to complete the task.
You guys had the metal capability to invision the goal and the stones to step out in that direction, and the dedication to follow thru.
Gary, your car was one of the first ones that I had an opportunity to see as a participant in judging in Dearborn and I have had the priveledge of following the completion of Hunters car as well. I only wish I could bottle and sell the dedication and work effort that I have seen from you gentlemen and others.
I know for a fact that both you gentlemen work for a living and did ALL the work yourselfs. You guys took the time to actually learn what was required and made it happen. I have been around for a long time and guys like you are becoming a rare breed.
The success that you guys have actually achieved takes some of the wind from the sails of those that would say that the upper end of Model A restoration is overly expensive, time consuming and only for a certain type of restorer.
You guys are prime examples of the old addage that its your attitude, not your aptitude that determines your altitude. It is us who should be proud to call you gentlemen our friends, and I want to thank you!
I have also witnessed your willingness to share your acquired knowledge to anyone that is restoring a car to any degree of completion. It is that willingness to share that makes this such a great hobby. There is room for everyone, and this forum has been a great source of information as well.
You guys had the metal capability to invision the goal and the stones to step out in that direction, and the dedication to follow thru.
Gary, your car was one of the first ones that I had an opportunity to see as a participant in judging in Dearborn and I have had the priveledge of following the completion of Hunters car as well. I only wish I could bottle and sell the dedication and work effort that I have seen from you gentlemen and others.
I know for a fact that both you gentlemen work for a living and did ALL the work yourselfs. You guys took the time to actually learn what was required and made it happen. I have been around for a long time and guys like you are becoming a rare breed.
The success that you guys have actually achieved takes some of the wind from the sails of those that would say that the upper end of Model A restoration is overly expensive, time consuming and only for a certain type of restorer.
You guys are prime examples of the old addage that its your attitude, not your aptitude that determines your altitude. It is us who should be proud to call you gentlemen our friends, and I want to thank you!
I have also witnessed your willingness to share your acquired knowledge to anyone that is restoring a car to any degree of completion. It is that willingness to share that makes this such a great hobby. There is room for everyone, and this forum has been a great source of information as well.
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msmaron
Well-known member
I second what Will wrote above. Gary and Hunter have helped me out with many items I had questions about - a lot of them. They never made me feel like a pest, however at times, I might have been close to one. I have never seen Gary's tudor in person, but have seen a lot of pictures of it and it looks amazing. I did see Hunter's 29 special coupe at Oshkosh last summer and it to was very nice, especially since Hunter did almost all the work himself.
Rusty Nelson
Rusty Nelson
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
One part at a time.........it will get restored.
37 parts done..............only 5,287 more to go.
37 parts done..............only 5,287 more to go.
Charles Reese
Well-known member
From one of the 'fine point plodders': "it's the journey, not the destination". Still a work in progress (12+ yr) ... but then, so am I
As well stated previously, the many folks involved in the evolution of the JS and others (most of whom I will likley never actually meet) willing to share their knowledge (& elusive parts) is making this a fascinating journey ... other than the internal engine work, this is a 'home garage-do it yourself' project - have learned body work, painting (& sanding), upholstery, etc. (and yes, even which way the cotter pins point
). My special connection to this vehicle is that I often rode in it when I was young (in the 1950s) growing up in the dustbowl of Oklahoma-fortunately that area did not have enough water to actually rust anything!-last tagged 1965.
As well stated previously, the many folks involved in the evolution of the JS and others (most of whom I will likley never actually meet) willing to share their knowledge (& elusive parts) is making this a fascinating journey ... other than the internal engine work, this is a 'home garage-do it yourself' project - have learned body work, painting (& sanding), upholstery, etc. (and yes, even which way the cotter pins point). My special connection to this vehicle is that I often rode in it when I was young (in the 1950s) growing up in the dustbowl of Oklahoma-fortunately that area did not have enough water to actually rust anything!-last tagged 1965.Attachments
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Purdy Swoft
Well-known member
It reminds me that i've posted on the wrong thread.
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