old Henry's engine

[Ronnie]

When Doc Roger initially suggested the three ring pistons 3½ years ago I was uncomfortable mainly because it departed from Ford's tried and proven design. Not knowing any better and Doc being very persuasive that the lighter three ring pistons were better with less friction I consented. Now, only 30,000 miles later, one of those light three ring pistons came apart. Don't know the causal relationship but it's pretty suspicious. I'm glad we're going back to the heavier 4 ring pistons. May be worse but I feel a whole lot better about it.

So far I've seen strong opinions both ways that seem more emotional than rational so I really don't know that it makes any real difference.

Good to hear from you again Harylufa. It's been a while.

The pistons shown in post #22 are both 4 ring design.!!!Where is the 3 ring design you speak of?

R

 

[Ronnie]

Three ring pistons are acceptable in a proven design.No argument with that.
Running a 4 ring piston with only 3 rings is not an acceptable way to build an engine.
If it were why wouldn't a ring manufacturer ship the rings with a note inside saying that the 4th ring is not required and run it as that.There is not one ring company out there that would tell you that.That analagy would not hold any water at all. There are many engines out there today that have 4 or 5 ring grooves and the ring sets are supplied to utilize all the grooves.If you believe that some rings should not be installed in grooves i suggest you find another engine builder.Or on another note why are the pistons that are produced today for flatheads still have a 4 ring design because it works.At the same time the pistons that are produced with 3 ring packs also work.This thread is as bad as what oil to put in a flathead!!!

R

 

[51 MERC-CT]

The pistons shown in post #22 are both 4 ring design.!!!Where is the 3 ring design you speak of?

R

Maybe it's here?

 

[Harylufa]

When Doc Roger initially suggested the three ring pistons 3½ years ago I was uncomfortable mainly because it departed from Ford's tried and proven design. Not knowing any better and Doc being very persuasive that the lighter three ring pistons were better with less friction I consented. Now, only 30,000 miles later, one of those light three ring pistons came apart. Don't know the causal relationship but it's pretty suspicious. I'm glad we're going back to the heavier 4 ring pistons. May be worse but I feel a whole lot better about it.

So far I've seen strong opinions both ways that seem more emotional than rational so I really don't know that it makes any real difference.

Good to hear from you again Harylufa. It's been a while.

Dear Henry!
The mechanic told me exactly what Mr Doc Roger suggested. But due to my ignorance on the subject I preferred to leave the original. My engine is happy today and its performance is good. But I will never know how would work with 3 rings on pistons.

This is my personal opinion...

Harylufa

"Old Henry I learned a lot with your Post and a pleasure to read them all"

Thank you very much.

 

[Old Henry]

The pistons shown in post #22 are both 4 ring design.!!!Where is the 3 ring design you speak of?

R

I don't have a picture yet of the three ring piston other than this of the one that broke apart.

Doc still has the others. The two in #22 are my original 4 ring and the new 4 ring just going in.

 

[Old Henry]

Maybe it's here?

Nice PhotoShopping. You even had me fooled for a minute.

 

[Old Henry]

My 2¢ on the 4 vs. 3 ring debate:
Anyone ever see a four ring piston fall apart like my three ring piston did?
Good enough for me.

 

[Old Henry]

About 40 or more years ago, I was helping an old Ford mechanic pull a 59A motor apart and remarked that I had seen several pistons on these engines where the top ring had broken and crawled over the other segments of the ring, ruining the piston. His reply was that Ford tried the 4 ring piston because of oil consumption with the 3 ring. The fourth ring caused the walls to remove too much oil and the top ring would run too dry, get overheated, break and crawl over itself. He said that because improvements in ring construction and better oils available, he left off the 4th ring and never saw top rings burn up again and oil control was good. Since then, I have followed his advice and left off the 4th ring or ran a 3 ring piston without any noticiable increase it oil consumption or piston slap from no 4th ring. His claim was that Ford hired Olds engine engineers during the war and they came up with the 4 ring design. I don't know if it is true or an old wive's tale but as I said I have built lots and lots of flatheads since that time using his advice and have had no problems. That might give somebody food for thought.

It doesn't look like to me that the four ring pistons of today are built the same as the four ring ones that originally went into my engine.

As shown in this comparison photo, the only source of oil to the upper rings on the old 4 ring piston was that one hole and slot in one spot on the piston where oil could get to the upper rings past the lower one and the one hole in the third slot down. On the new 4 ring piston you'll see substantial oil passages right on the ring grooves to better lubricate them. Probably why they are still being made and sold to many. It will be interesting to see if my oil consumption with three rings (that was a quart per 1,000 miles) goes down any by adding the 4th ring.

 

[Ronnie]

Those new 4 ring pistons are a good product and will fit your needs with no problems.
They are made with todays technology not castings that are 50 years out of date.

R

 

[40 Deluxe]

So what is so terrible about leaving off the fourth ring? The piston won't know the difference! So what if that bottom groove is empty-no different than if the groove wasn't there. Two oil control rings per piston are not needed with the modern three-piece design, coupled with modern piston technology.
As far as the piston breaking, that has absolutely nothing to do with it being a three ring piston. more likely either a manufacturing flaw (poor quality control) or poor material. Were these three ring pistons name brand or off-shore? How long had they been sitting on a shelf? Not that they go bad, but they could have been made years ago by some no-name company long since out of business.

 

[rotorwrench]

A four ring piston has a skirt that is a different design than the average three ring. Three ringers usually need less skirt contact for less friction. The four ring design was likely used in the small bores of the flathead for better overall oil control and less of a tendency to get piston slap from wear on the skirt plus the added effect of being a stronger more robust design. Egge's three ring is a good design but they are only produced in 0.125" oversize and larger so they wont have the problems of a smaller bore like 3.0625" will encounter in a standard size 221 or a 3.1875" in a standard 239. Hypereutectic pistons were manufactured for Speedway for a short while but I guess they weren't selling well enough or they had some problems I don't know. The high silicon hypereutectic 3-ring would be the way to go in a smaller bore 3-ring design if some manufacturer would stick with it.

That fourth ring helps stabilize the long skirt on a 4-ring and the fourth ring should be in there to allow the piston to be as reliable as it can be and the oil control as good as it should be. To do otherwise is a risk to both.

 

[Ronnie]

A four ring piston has a skirt that is a different design than the average three ring. Three ringers usually need less skirt contact for less friction. The four ring design was likely used in the small bores of the flathead for better overall oil control and less of a tendency to get piston slap from wear on the skirt plus the added effect of being a stronger more robust design. Egge's three ring is a good design but they are only produced in 0.125" oversize and larger so they wont have the problems of a smaller bore like 3.0625" will encounter in a standard size 221 or a 3.1875" in a standard 239. Hypereutectic pistons were manufactured for Speedway for a short while but I guess they weren't selling well enough or they had some problems I don't know. The high silicon hypereutectic 3-ring would be the way to go in a smaller bore 3-ring design if some manufacturer would stick with it.

That fourth ring helps stabilize the long skirt on a 4-ring and the fourth ring should be in there to allow the piston to be as reliable as it can be and the oil control as good as it should be. To do otherwise is a risk to both.

Yup

 

[Ol' Ron]

The is designed to hold the "ring stack" Rings were designed to control oil consumption and compression. As new ring design came into being the need for a second oil ring was unnecessary. The piston to cylinder wall clearance these "Auto thermac" pistons is .0015/.002" and the stability of the piston has nothing to do with the lower oil ring.
I recently bought a set of Egge 3 5/16 + .020 3 ring pistons and the ring stack came from a Volvo truck. Over the past 75 years the Auto industry had figgered out how to build an engine that doesn't use oil and has a life expectancy of several 100,00 miles with only 3 rings. We're lucky to have the benefit of this technology for our Flatheads.

 

[Ronnie]

When rings are produced in the factory they are produced by size only not application.
One of the most common sizes produced was a 4" bore with 5/64" compression rings and a 3/16" oil ring.This combination fits Ford Chevy Dodge and many others.They are all are 3 ring designs.When the rings are packaged they all have the same part number on them when they go out the door not knowing where they are destined to be used.Plain and simple.Hastings Perfect circle Sealed power Grant Total Seal whomever all do the same thing.Manufactured by size and the application is irrelevant.A printed catalog is produced for the aftermarket to aid machinists in ordering a ring set to see the application set number and order it from a warehouse.The sets are produced in various combinations to accommodate cast rings chrome rings moly as required.Still only by size. A 350 chev a 302 351 w Windsor 360 dodge and many many more all have the same rings in the groove.A Hastings set number of 139 is assigned and referenced in the catalog A flathead is no different it utilizes a ring combo of 3 3/16" bore with 5/32" 5/32" compression 3/16" 3/16" oil.Those particular rings are used in many other engines not flathead only.There are 45 different size combinations alone in a 3.1875 bore size in the new Hastings cat. 8 of them use the same top ring in cast iron that is used in the flathead set.
All of this is in turn is done with the style of ring packs that are produced by the piston manufactures.It is not rocket science.Egge as an example will produce a piston that they can get a set for and that is how it is done.They would not dream up a piston and then discover that rings aren't made in that size.All the engine component people know what specs are used.Been that way forever.
Hope this helps when trying to compare some ring info to what some have been told in the engine world.Ask Walt and Ron they are well aware of what is available.I can also see that Rotor Wrench and Go fast have a good grip on what is going on.Ther are also many others here that have it figured out sorry if i missed any You Too Pete,and last but not least lets not forget about the one and only JWL. (Do you thing he knows which way is up)"LOL" That's my2¢ for Friday.

R

 

[Harylufa]

Hi All!
I found someone who sell this pistons are news. And look what it says
Are they correct to my engine 59a-b?? 3 3/16, but three rings.
Thanks for your help.
Hary

 

[oldgirl46]

Wow, they look old. Any manufacturer on the box?

 

[Ol' Ron]

It really depends on the expansion characteristics of the material the piston made out of.This determines the fit of the piston and cylinder. A well-designed piston is fit with a very close tolerance.

 

[52merc]

what size are they

 

[Ronnie]

Hi All!
I found someone who sell this pistons are news. And look what it says
Are they correct to my engine 59a-b?? 3 3/16, but three rings.
Thanks for your help.
Hary

Look up inside piston Are there part numbers there should be.

R

 

[Harylufa]

what size are they

Hi! It says 3 3/16. This is your doubt?

Thanks

I will be back with more info.

Hary