Sector box play

QGolden

QGolden

Well-known member
Hi,
I have not started to do anything with my steering yet on my 1930 project. I have a little less than 2 inches of play at the wheel, acceptable to me, but I will look at adjusting it. I have the Service Bulletins to go by, but my question is regarding the Sector Housing. With the frame off the ground, if I grab onto the
Pitman Arm I can move it a bit. If I pull the pitman arm off I can just detect a bit of movement up an down in the Sector Gear shaft, but using the Pitman Arm for leverage I can move it just enough to hear a bit of a thunk and I can hear the grease move. Obviously there is some lateral movement there. The steering box to frame bolts are tight , there is definitely no movement in the box itself.

With the wheels on the ground I can see a small amount of movement in the Sector Gear shaft when the steering just starts to turn the wheels.

I realize that by doing the adjustments to the steering box as prescribed in the Service Bulletins it might draw it up a bit.

So my question is how much play is too much in the sector housing and gear shaft? Is it something I should deal with now, or could it wait until next winter?
 
Generally, to do the adjustment to the tooth/worm, it is best to have the entire steering column out on the bench.

It is possible to do it in the car but once out on the road and should you feel a bind, you'll wish you hadn't.

Yes, with limited effort you could reposition the sector relative to the worm and remove this area of play/free motion. Think a warm sunny afternoon of work for a better and possibly safer driving car.

Asking about relative looseness of the sector shaft in the housing is a little difficult to quantify. ANY looseness here is detrimental to accurate steering - and promotes leakage from the box (there is not seal at this location and the original design relies upon tight fitting parts to remain oil/grease/whatever tight.)

To go the next step you're talking about rebuilding virtually the entire steering box. Still a job for removal and to the bench. And you'll have some decisions to make such as to keep either the worm or the sector (probably not the latter) and whether to replace the bushings and go original or to upgrade to needle bearings.

My tendency would be to do this latter, but this a job requiring a lathe. Your tightest steering will likely be achieved using needles but it is a careful one step at a time procedure. I think Bob Carrabbio has written it up. See http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/steering.htm

Some of the parts houses offer sector housings all set up and ready to go with the sector included - this may be a way out at medium money, but having read Bob's narrative above and understanding his implications, these commercially produced housing/sectors may not maintain the necessary tightness as Bob indicated? Maybe a call to the parts house may reassure? Read Bob's narrative before you call.

So were it mine to do for an immediate improvement in tightness and given a warm and sunny afternoon of shop pleasure - go the first step.

Save the second step for that steering column you pick up at the swap meet or for when the car is snowed in and you can't drive it anyway.

Joe K
 
Have someone move the steering wheel back and forth about 3 inches while you look closely at the square shaft and pitman arm for any looseness.

The S/B details the steering adjustments very well. The sector is tightest in the straight ahead position and has designed in play off the center mark.
 
I honestly would not think a second thought about adjusting it with it mounted in the vehicle. After checking all the areas on the front end for wear, remove the Pitman arm, open the windshield and stick your hand through the opening to check freeplay.
 
I did the adjustments with it out of the vehicle. After installing it, I fine tuned the adjustments. You will want to check the lateral (in towards the frame and out from the frame) movement of the sector shaft as well as the slop on the shaft against the sector housing bushings. With new buttons in all the ball joints, new needle bearing sector housing, and new sector shaft, it is posible to get down to about 3/8th to 1/2 inch of play in the steering wheel. When you get it this tight, be sure to test it for binding. Following the directions in the link in post #2 should get you there.
 
with any movement up and down in the sector shaft, you will have leakage and the steering will be unsatisfactory in some regard, e.g. wander, shimmy, clunking when turning, etc. I would have new bushings installed and honed to fit the shaft, assuming the shaft is still in useable condition and have the housing machined for a modern seal. I don't like needle bearing conversions. But if you want to drive it now, just adjust it as best you can and enjoy the car, adding lubricant as needed. Then take it out and rebuild it in the winter. Its a satisfying job when its done correctly.
 
I agree with Pat and feel the needle bearing conversion isn't needed.

This also got me to thinking, just when does a needle bearing become a roller bearing?:confused:
 
I just rebuilt the two-tooth boxes on both my coupe and my Tudor, and used the needle bearing conversions from Bratton's. I followed both the FSB and Les Andrews' instructions for rebuild and adjustment. It's all pretty simple, but it's important to go step-by-step. The steering has been vastly improved. I can't say it's better than using original bushings, but it was certainly easier for me to do it this way.
 
Needle bearings can be hit or miss. The issue is with Brinnelling due to the small diameter needles into the sector shaft. The original shafts were likely (a guess on my part) made softer and the beating will cause little dents in the shaft. Aftermarket shafts may or may not be made to handle the needle bearings. This may be the mix results you hear on the conversion. My brothers was done 40 years ago and is still fine.

The bushing being sold by the parts houses are not the correct bushings!!!!!!
I can not stress this enough.

Here is the information I have come up with on the sectors:

Steering sectors

As far as play, it is loose so you know it is not correct. You have two options.

Live with it. Walk through the proper steps to adjust the box and take what it gives you. Depending on how you drive you may be fine. I have seen cars with 1/2 turn play and the owners were living with it.

Fix it. It needs to come apart and be measured. If the sector shaft is not worn then you can find some correct bushings and get it honed to fit and you know it will be right. If the sector teeth are nice then you can have it ground below the wear and have new bushings fitted to the shaft diameter.
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
I agree with Pat and feel the needle bearing conversion isn't needed.

This also got me to thinking, just when does a needle bearing become a roller bearing?:confused:
Click to expand...

I think (and am guessing) when the needle bearing ends are contained in a cage?:confused:

I agree needle bearings in a sector housing aren't needed, but they come with a grease seal. I know you can have a housing machined for the seal. I calculated that new bushings, honing, new seal, and machining the new bushings and machining the for the new seal, was just about equal to the new needle bearing housing. The time traveling to and from the machine shop was where I saved some time and money.
 
FWIW: I attended Les Andrew's steering seminar at the Michigan National last summer. He stated he prefers the use of bushings over the needle bearings as the bushings can be fitted (honed) to the sector shaft with much tighter tolerances. I just rebuilt a sector using the needle bearing adapted housing (because I had it) and I am not satisfied with the fit either. This next winter...I am going back to the bushings with an end seal to stop the drip.
 
I have had the needle sector & Torrington sector thrust brg in use for about 15,000 miles with very easy steering & no oil leak.I guess it depends if you have a hard sector shaft or not.
 
Thank you for the thoughtful replies. I cannot see any evidence of it leaking, so I guess I will leave it for a later project for now.
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
This also got me to thinking, just when does a needle bearing become a roller bearing?:confused:
Click to expand...

Actually the terms are interchangeable. The official name is Needle Roller Bearing. There are a few different types of bearings that utilize rollers. Whether or not they have a cage depends on the application. Needle bearings are designed for high radial loads as one might imagine a sector shaft in a steering application. If the loads are very high, then the cage is omitted and the rollers roll against each other, such bearings are called "Full Complement" bearings.

Although they would work for a sector shaft, the slow RPM of the shaft infers the use of a bushing.

I wonder if I could true up the Sector Shaft in the lathe, ream new bushings to a a press fit, then use a Brake Cylinder Hone to bring it to size.
 
QGolden said:
Actually the terms are interchangeable. The official name is Needle Roller Bearing. There are a few different types of bearings that utilize rollers. Whether or not they have a cage depends on the application. Needle bearings are designed for high radial loads as one might imagine a sector shaft in a steering application. If the loads are very high, then the cage is omitted and the rollers roll against each other, such bearings are called "Full Complement" bearings.

Although they would work for a sector shaft, the slow RPM of the shaft infers the use of a bushing.

I wonder if I could true up the Sector Shaft in the lathe, ream new bushings to a a press fit, then use a Brake Cylinder Hone to bring it to size.
Click to expand...

Thanks Golden, now I won't need to guess.
 
Re: Sector box play Update 6/2

Thanks for the replies, with your comments and Les's Book, I was able to make adjustments and eliminate all the play in the sector shaft, and all the free play in the steering wheel. I installed a new shortened pitman arm and I was feeling pretty good about my progress, until I filled the steering box with 600W and saw it run out the bottom of the steering box as fast as I put it in.:rolleyes:

Looking at the bottom of the steering box with a mirror and a light, I can see right up into the Worm Gear.

If I read the book right, at the bottom of the steering box there is a Lower Bushing Assembly, which I have, and the Oil Seal (missing) inserts into the Lower Bushing Assembly, and is held in place with the Oil Seal Retainer Nut, which I do not have.

My question is, what does the Oil Seal Retainer Nut thread on to? Nothing down there is threaded?
 

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What you have pictured is the 7 tooth steering box. You must have a 2 tooth steering, as pictured on page 23 in Bratton's 2012 catalog. You can also buy a special tube to seal in the gear oil for that location. Bratton's # 5280 for $8.
 
Whoops, when I snapped the photo from the book, I opened the wrong page. I think I figured it out though, I just removed the Lower Bushing Assy, and using it for a template, made a gasket to seal the bottom of the box. I am planning to install an in dash light switch. I filled the box before I came in from the shop last night, I will see if she is still full this morning. :-)
 
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