Valve Job Options?

[MALAK]

I'm helping a friend get his 31 PU running so he can sell it. http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82064

A compression check and pulling the head revealed all 4 exhaust valve burnt. I have some extra, serviceable, valves and the tools to do a quality valve job. He doesn't want to spend a bunch of money so I thought we could just do a routine valve job, get her running, and see how it goes.
This is turning out to be anything but routine!

I've taken apart plenty of Model A engines but have never run across this: Removing the valve springs I notice they seem a bit shorter/heaver than stock but don't really pay this much attention. Also, the exh spring retainers have 2 flats, they're oval, not round. Again don't pay this much attention.

Now the problem: Lift the valve to insert guide removal tool and the valve won't lift high enough to allow the tool to be inserted. A little hillbilly engineering (no offense to hillbilly's) and I was able to get most (not all) the valves/guides out with a homemade tool.

Look at the attached pics of the removed valve compared to a stock and also the lifters installed in this particular engine. The valves are almost ½" shorter than stock and the lifters are an equal distance longer than stock. Also, the valves have a flange on the stem just under the valve head similar to an early V8.

As I contemplated/cursed this setup I thought this must have been some kind of aftermarket kit since it uses adjustable lifters and ******* valves. However cleaning the valve head off revealed it's Ford Script.

Someone please tell me if they've seen this before? More importantly what are my options as far as doing a valve job on this engine, inexpensively?

Does anyone make valves this length? Or does anyone have 4 valves like this they could part with? I've also contemplated replacing the adjusters with machined down grade 8 bolts to reduce to height of the lifters to near stock and then grinding new valves for clearance (a little more work than I'd like to put into this). If someone makes or has some valves like this it seems like a better (and simpler) option.

The engine in this PU also has a peculiar SN, one too many digits and no stars. At first I thought this must be a Diamond engine but it is not. It must have been a replacement engine but what's with the extra digit?

 

[TinCup]

Looking at the valve makes me wonder what is the condition of the seats? They look awfully rough. Is there enough of the valve seats to grind? I'm sorry I can't help with the identification.

 

[MALAK]

Looking at the valve makes me wonder what is the condition of the seats? They look awfully rough. Is there enough of the valve seats to grind? I'm sorry I can't help with the identification.

Yes, the seats are serviceable.

 

[Kurt in NJ]

Perhaps they are V8 flathead valves ---the original lifters were drilled and custom or adapted adjusting screws were added ---V8 valves are shorter, and have the same head diameter as an A valve ---I think flathead 6 valves are somewhere inbetween for length ----take measurements ----post a picture of the whole removed valve next to a ruler--

 

[PC/SR]

They look like Chrysler lifters. Measure the stems. The A lifters are .593 diameter, the Chrysler is .624. The Chrysler lifter base is 1.285 dismeter. Stock lifter base was 1.110-1.125, and the commonly available lifter base now is 1.117, but those are not the common lifters that you have. The Chrysler lifter length is 2.44 to the top of the stem, not including the adjusting screw. The springs and valves are probably the shorter v8 because of the longer Chrysler lifter. There are specs around for the valve lengths, I think the v8 is 4.75 or thereabouts up to 1948, and the stock A is 5.677. The v8 springs are also shorter than the A.
Check the lifter bores before you buy anything to replace whatever is in there. The bore has probably been reamed out to a larger diameter. There is really no reason not to use the Chrysler lifters adn the v8 valves and springs are easily available. However, I would want to do a lot of measuring before using the v8 valves with the Chrysler lifters. They may be a bit too long and not allow sufficient lash which would explain the burnt exhausts. Maybe you could have a machinist grind off the valve stem base a touch to get a little extra clearance if needed.
You might also check the cam grind just for fun. Chrysler lifters usually go with hot cams although you can use a stock cam.

 

[Tom Wesenberg]

Seems like now is the time to give it a proper valve job, rather than a patch job. The head is off and the valves are out, so it isn't much work to make sure the seats have a smooth surface of the proper angle and width.

 

[Jim Brierley]

Looks like V8 valves, and probably V8 springs with Chrysler lifters. Measure spring pressure before re-assembly to be sure there is enough. Too little pressure will burn valves in a hurry. The keepers are also V8, I use them because they are lighter. You need 38-40 lbs. of spring pressure on a stock cam, which would be 2.125" installed height.

 

[Purdy Swoft]

Without removing the engine and cam so that the lifters could be replaced, the easiest and least expensive repair would be, either grind or replace the V8 exhaust valves. The longer lifters won't work with longer model A valves. the lifters also appear to be larger in diameter than model A lifters. For best results, now that I have the equipment, I always grind the seats.

 

[MALAK]

Seems like now is the time to give it a proper valve job, rather than a patch job. The head is off and the valves are out, so it isn't much work to make sure the seats have a smooth surface of the proper angle and width.

Yes, Tom, that was the original intent. I have both Souix and Neway valve/seat tools and planned on doing a proper valve job. But like I said the owner doesn't want to put a bunch of money into this as he wants to sell it. I was gonna supply the valves and time, he was only going to have to buy a gasket set.

After a little more research this morning I'm more bewildered. SBI International (a major valve train component manufacturer) has a search function by which you can search their valves by spec i.e. head dia, stem dia, length, etc. Once a search is done you can select an individual component and it'll give detailed info on that part including manufacturers/models/engines that component fits. Doing so revealed the Ford 2N, 8N, 9N(tractors), and early V8 engines all use the same valve which has a slightly smaller head (1.51 vs 1.537) but a much shorter length (4.819). This is another ½" shorter than the already ½" short valve (5.25) removed from this engine.

So apparently the valves removed from this engine (although Ford) are not from a tractor or early V8). Also, the early V8 valve has a stem dia is .003 oversize compared to the A.

Did the GAZ or Germany "A" motors use valves like this perhaps?

I haven't (but will) measure the head/stem dia of the odd valve. On Dec 7th I have a date to meet with him and work on it again. At that time I'll take some measurements of the lifters.

I'll continue to explore options but I think he may have to cut his losses on this. He already thinks this A is worth about 4 times what it really is worth because the person he got it from (many years ago) told him someone offered him $8k for it. Plus it needs a lot more work than just the engine to even be driven.

The attached pics is of the O.L. of the ******* valve.

 

[Bob C]

How about a 6 cylinder. 1GT 6505-A 1.51 x 5.18" or 7HA 6505-A 1.51" x 5.36"

Bob

 

[MALAK]

How about a 6 cylinder. 1GT 6505-A 1.51 x 5.18" or 7HA 6505-A 1.51" x 5.36"

Bob

Close in head diam/stem length but .0308 oversize on the stem diam. Although I haven't measured the stem diam. yet if it is over/under sized it's not by much. It visually appears to be stock.

There are several valves (including the one you mentioned) that I may be able to adapt.

 

[Bob C]

What are you getting for stem size? My Dana catalog shows .311 for the Model A, 9N tractor,
and the 6 cylinder.

Bob

 

[MALAK]

What are you getting for stem size? My Dana catalog shows .311 for the Model A, 9N tractor,
and the 6 cylinder.

Bob

Interesting. I'm showing .3418 for the 6cyl and .341 for 8cyl. Is 7HA 6505-A or 6505-A the Dana PN you show? I couldn't cross reference it.

 

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

I was going to say 9N tractor valves. Measure your valve length and head dia. and stem size. I will tell you tomorrow what the 9N valve size is when I go out in the shop. Walt

 

[Bob C]

I think you may be looking at the later valves. For the 6cyl I show 1947-50 .341 and 1941-47 .311.
The numbers I gave in post #10 are Ford numbers.
For the 9N I show intake 1.547 x 4.672, exhaust 1.281 x 4.688 .311 stems

update The 7HA 6505-A is the 1947-50 valve.

Bob

 

[MALAK]

I think you may be looking at the later valves. For the 6cyl I show 1947-50 .341 and 1941-47 .311.
The numbers I gave in post #10 are Ford numbers.
For the 9N I show intake 1.547 x 4.672, exhaust 1.281 x 4.688 .311 stems

update The 7HA 6505-A is the 1947-50 valve.

Bob

Looks like you where right Bob. This valve is listed at Macs for a 1GT 6cyl. http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-f...engine-1gt-6505/camid/F30/cp/JS0R3CHL1073195/

Kind of pricey but this is exactly what's needed.
Thanks all.