New to us '28 Tudor

P

P-Js_28Tudor

Junior Member
Hello,

We recently acquired my wife's uncle's 1928 Model A Tudor. Found this site while doing a Google search for help fixing a stuck door latch (a VERY helpful thread with pictures). That led to doing some browsing which led me to a thread on dealing with rust in the radiator (again a VERY informative read). I have a lot to learn about this car and so far I've found some great information here,

Uncle Ronald bought the car from the original owner back in 1951 with about 5,000 miles on it. The odometer now reads just under 39,000 so he enjoyed using the car for many years. Somewhere in the middle 1980s the car was parked in his garage and it remained there until mid-September when we bought it and trailered it to our place.

He did tell me that prior to parking the car he had:
- disconnected the battery,
- pulled the spark plugs and oiled the cylinders,
- completely drained the cooling system, and
- had left a small amount of gas in the fuel tank.

While cleaning up the car some over the past few weeks I did find a cracked battery under the floorboards, which probably froze during a Minnesota winter after it lost its charge. Under the hood both upper and lower radiator hoses where pulled off. Some little critters had carried some "bedding" into the upper radiator opening and I pulled out as much of that out as I could by hand. I didn't find any of that stuff in the lower radiator opening or in either of the engine openings. Using the engine crank I was able to gently turn the engine over so I know it isn't locked up.

Due to the time of the year now I probably won't attempt to get the car running until next spring but are there any things I could, or should, do in the meantime that would be "good medicine" for the engine?

I'm probably going to pull the radiator and take it to a shop for a good flush and pressure/flow check. Also thinking of pulling the spark plugs and re-oiling the cylinders. After draining the oil from the pan I'm considering dropping the oil pan to give it a thorough cleaning. I'm not quite sure what to do about the fuel tank tho'. I'm sure there must be something not at all resembling gasoline in there by now.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be most appreciated.

Thanks!
 
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Welcome to the Barn !!! You will find a lot of help on here!
Post some photo's ,as There is a lot of interest in the low mileage cars on this site.
All the plans you have above sound good to me .
I might add as you have had the mice in the rad and the hoses were off they may well have gotten into the head and water jacket , I would pull the head to check !
You don't want to fill your nicely cleaned rad with more critter mess.
John Cochran
 
If it were my car, I would pull out the motor and take it apart. Having sat that long in one place, it is possible some valves are stuck, and I have seen where engines sat in damp areas for long periods of time, that the crankshaft gets rusty where the bearings have grooves for oil flow. If the engine is started and the crank has some rusty areas, the rust could damage otherwise nice bearings. I would take the engine apart, check everything, and carefully reassemble, with new piston rings, and probably a valve and seat regrinding. Others may disagree with me, but that is my opinion.
 
juke joint johnny said:
Welcome to the Barn !!! You will find a lot of help on here!
Post some photo's ,as There is a lot of interest in the low mileage cars on this site.
All the plans you have above sound good to me .
I might add as you have had the mice in the rad and the hoses were off they may well have gotten into the head and water jacket , I would pull the head to check !
You don't want to fill your nicely cleaned rad with more critter mess.
John Cochran
Click to expand...
Mornin' John,
I second that head pullin' idea. Friend Dennis's Model A had the head & block water jackets COMPLETELY full of cotton!! Them meeces can go through a hole this small---O---! He made hooks from skinny welding rod & FINALLY fished it all out. Bill W.
 
radiator will likely need a thorough professional cleaning. ask your local Model A bubbas which shop understands old cars best.

at a minimum, drop the oil pan and open up the valve chamber before starting. you will likely find surprises there too. pulling the head will give you a better view of what's in the water jackets..... the bloody mice get into everything!
 
Description

You may want to pick up one of these to hold the oil pump in place when you pull the pan. This one is from Snyders but available at most all parts houses.

Oil Pump Retainer

  • Use this handy fitting to hold the pump in place when you remove or install the oil pan. The fitting threads in where the slotted pipe thread plug goes on the side of the block between the oil pan and the valve cover at the center. Once it is installed, you thread the bolt in the center of the fitting in against the oil pump so it won't fall out. You thread this bolt in just snug enough to hold the pump, do not over tighten or you will bust the oil pump casing. U.S.A.
    Part NumberSpecificsPrice A-6621-R1928-34$5.25 / ea.

    Return to the product list

    A6621R-4762.jpg
    loading_animated2.gif



    View Larger
 
Hi Bill Good to hear from you !!
Tell Dennis he has my Sympathy,
I recently spent quite a few hours with welding rods and a vacuum cleaner clearing out straw and nutshells from the head & water jacket on a late B engine.

John Cochran
 
P-J

Welcome, if there is one thing for sure it is that there is a lot of good folks with a wealth of knowlege about A's. So you have come to the right place.
That being said...I aint one of them!
I am however in a very simular place as you.
I aquired my father-in-laws 29 Tudor. While it was in Fla. he had parked it around '84
Unfortunitly he did not make any preperation before doing so...
My mother-in-law at some point had it put on stands but that was it.
First thing I did when I got it home was cleaned the fuel sys. Pulled the tank and had it boiled and lined. I did get the car running but there where obvious internal concerns, so I've since pulled the engine and sent it off for a complete rebuilt. (report back was a bad crank and babbit and a burnt valve)
With the motor removed I discovered the bigger problem - a badly damaged frt motor mount and cross member. That is where I am at today.
So if I can tell you something from experience it is "expect that with each thing that you repair it will most times lead to new discoveries.
Gook Luck
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. Lots of things to consider.

Here's a couple of pictures before unloading the car. The spare engine/transmission I figure is from a '29 based on the number on the side of the block.

Somewhere along the way Uncle Ronald had the body painted. He didn't like the original dark blue/black fender look. Still have a lot of cleaning up to do so I can take better pictures for the insurance company.

PICT4969_400.jpg
(click image to see a larger version)

PICT4970_400.jpg
(click image to see a larger version)
 
Spent most of the day on Friday cleaning up the car. The exterior got a sponge bath (resulting in 4 buckets of very black water!) and then a quick once over with a light coat of wax. Lots of Windex on the glass as well. Sure makes a difference in the appearance...!!!

Any suggestions on a roof dressing or conditioner? The vinyl is very dry. Also what would be the best to use to brighten up the shiny parts (radiator shell, headlights, mirrors, etc)?
 
I'm glad to see that this beuty is in good hands, and i'm sure old uncle Ronald is to.

Good luck! and have fun
 
As far as the roof, if you can take a pic similar to the one below I can tell you whether it's been replaced. That will determine what I'd suggest moving forward. As far as the engine and radiator I'd slow down a bit as I don't exactly agree with the majority.

Cooling System:

If the radiator is original then most shops could render it unserviceable which would mean one less original in existence. Take a close look at the radiator core. The original had round vertical tubes while replacements will typically have oval or flat vertical tubes. Original radiators DO tend to get thin from corrosion over the decades but often still function fine if well flushed. Radiator shops generally want to pressure test at 15 pounds or more which can blow though thin spots or weakened seams but since model A's weren't pressurized like cars of the last seventy years they don't need to hold that pressure and should be tested at no more than 1-2 pounds pressure. Also keep in mind that the person at the radiator shop may promise he knows what to do but the minute you leave he turns and hands it off to someone else to work on it.

The normal water flow of the cooling system is such that cool water enters the bottom of the engine, rises as it heats and exits the top. It then enters the top of the radiator and lowers as it cools exiting the bottom. Of course the water pump aids this but it's the logical direction of flow. Ordinarily you would reverse this direction to "back flush" the system and dislodge whatever possible. However since the system has been open and you obviously had intervention from critters you need to do some careful preliminary flushing. You can accomplish a great deal with just the water pressure from your garden hose.

You could work with the radiator on the car but it can be messy. If you remove it you can get out more of that critter debris with a little shaking and the help of gravity. If done on the car then vacuum out as much as you can. Since the debris appears to be concentrated at the top of the radiator you would want to use the garden hose to push the water in from the bottom and float the debris out the top.

For back flushing the entire cooling system I made something up with some 6" scraps of 1-3/4" (I.D.) radiator hose and items from the hardware store. I purchased a combination of PVC pipe fittings and about 6' of clear 3/4" (if I recall correctly) plastic hose. The idea is one radiator hose scrap clamps onto a PVC coupling/reducer that is attached to a male hose thread fitting so it can be attached to the garden hose. The other is done similarly but to an adapter that attaches (snug slip fit) to the section of clear hose. The original lower radiator hoses and water return pipe get removed from the car. The first adapter set gets clamped to the lower radiator outlet with a modern hose clamp and allows for the garden hose to be attached. The second with the clear hose gets clamped to the lower engine water inlet. The clear hose allows for the discharged (dirty) water to be directed away from a nice clean engine compartment but allows viewing/monitoring of the debris as it exits. It's important to note the closest size PVC fitting for use to clamp the radiator hose to is larger than 1-3/4" O.D. so it takes some doing to stretch the hose over it and clamp it. That is why my scrap hose sections are now permanently affixed to my adapters instead of just using the existing lower hoses on a car I wish to flush.

Anyway, you get the idea and you can adapt to your particular situation. I would likely do a preliminary flush of both the radiator and engine separately and a final flush as described.

Engine:

I've only encountered corrosion an a crankshaft as Bill suggested one time. In this case the car was parked in 1953 with water in it. It leaked water into the valve chamber which then fed down to the main bearings. In this case it bound up the engine. If the engine had been run with the oil level close to up and the water drained when parked then I can't imagine such a problem. All bearings should remain coated with oil and protected. The oil could jell a bit over the years but would protect it either way. You turned yours over without issue it appears so I wouldn't fear it.

I would check the oil level and appearance with the dip stick first. Then drain the oil looking for any particles in the oil as well as the top of the drain plug. With your little finger, sweep around the drain hole in the pan for any particles or solids. Any decision on pulling the pan can be made afterward. If you lean in that direction I'd inspect the valve chamber first and go from there. Personally I'd have to find something questionable or compelling before I'd remove either the side cover or pan.

31deluxe-006.jpg
 
I agree with Marco. I wouldn't take a radiator to a shop. I was getting set to remove the frame and tanks from my original 1928 radiator, thinking I'd have to rod out the tubes. I wanted to try something else first as it might work and be easier. I've never tried the vinegar treatment before and was affraid it might open holes in my original radiator tubes, but it didn't. In fact the tubes are drier than they ever were.

I'd use a mechanical fingers to probe around the block and radiator tanks to pull out any mouse nests you can, then use compressed air to blow out what you can while the suction of a shop vac is one the other opening, so you are kind of backflushing using compressed air. Then I'd use water to backflush. I'd remove the radiator and turn it upside down. Read my recent thread about my cooling system problem and how easy it was to correct.

http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87331&highlight=radiator+cleaning+mess

BTW, I was wondering if CLR would work on the radiator for calcium deposits. One of my friends contacted the company and they said they would NOT try it.
 
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I just bought a radiator from a CL ad this past week, and the upper tank was completely full of a mouse nest-it took forever to get it all out!
 
Welcome to the Model A family. I hope you find a local chapter to join. It is always good to have local support.
 
Again, thanks for all the suggestions.

A neighbor who has a Model T and several Model As recommended local that he has used. I've actually used them when I needed a radiator rebuilt on our 1978 Trans A/M and they did a wonderful job on that one.

Marco, if you have any pictures of the adapter connections you made those would be helpful to see. I can kind of visualize them but a picture is worth a thousand words. And here is a link to a picture like the one you posted of the corner of the roof.

Tom, I read your thread on cleaning the cooling system and it sounds like something to try next spring when I get the car running. The compressed air and shopvac approach is something I could try yet this fall.

After adding some new oil to the cylinders I turned the motor over a few times with the crank. It felt pretty smooth and was very quiet, no screeching/grinding sounds that I could hear anyway. Bruce, thanks for the tip on pulling the distributor and putting some oil down there. My guess is that would take care of the center bearing, what about the front and back bearings?

The shiny parts (radiator shell, mirrors, bumpers, hubcaps. etc) need some attention. I don't know how much of the crud I'll be able to get off of them but would like to try to clean them up a little. Any other suggestions for what to try?

As you can tell my learning curve is quite steep at the moment. But so far everyone who has seen the car is amazed at how good it looks and what good condition it is in. It isn't a show queen by any means but should be a fun driver.
 
P-J There is a great local Model A Ford Club in the Twin Cities. There is a restoration clinic the Thursday after Thanks Giving. Google Twin Cites Model A Ford Club to see the newsletter.
 
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