Bill Goddard
Well-known member
Just wondering. With all the adds being run on TV about Mesothelioma - lung cancer - do we still have a problem with brake lining dust or have they taken asbestos out of the linings? Bill G
Asbestos Danger in Brake linings?
- Thread starter Bill Goddard
- Start date
1931 flamingo
Well-known member
In my opinion asbestos danger is ONE of the biggest snafus ever perpetrated on the american public by the "guvment". Remember: " I'm here from the guvment to help you" ? Had a great uncle who worked in the asbestos mines in northern Vermont all his life, lived into his 89's, died of a heart attack, lungs clean. Asbestos tiles, siding, steam pipe wraps, etc. unless powdery and tons of it, no danger. How much dust from brake linings? minimal JMO
Paul in CT
Paul in CT
Kevin in NJ
Well-known member
Asbestos is a multi billion dollar industry, for the lawyers. They do well on the fees.
People have been sold the idea that asbestos is a horrible thing. Recently I heard a lady could feel the asbestos on her skin. She worked in a school where they contained some asbestos. Most do not realize that they get more exposure from the dirt then they would ever get from insulation.
I talked to a guy who did asbestos remediation in buildings. He told me, I have not verified, that the problem was with the people who smoked. The people who smoked and worked around the asbestos were extremely likely to get asbestos. Those who did not smoke got it at a much lower rate. The rates were like 80% for smoker and 20% for non.
Remember smoking causes the cilia in the lungs to stop moving particles out of the lungs. Long term agitation by the mineral fibers causes the cancers.
These people that worked with it were coated with it. At the ship yards the coolest place was the asbestos storage room. I have been told the guys would eat lunch in the asbestos room cause it was cooler.
If brake dust was that bad then I think you would have a lot of people with problems today. So many guys did stints as a mechanic or even just doing their own brakes, plus what about all the stuff that just got out? The super fine powdered asbestos that you find from the brakes is not a real issue. The particles may be too small to be a problem and are easily removed from the lungs. Consider that most natural asbestos is a jagged mineral that would be harder to clear from the lungs. The brake particles are not large and probably not as jagged. (my guesses on the shapes)
Now we have to bear in mind that the hazards of asbestos were well known back in the day. The companies did not really offer any protection from the problem and I would bet the protection would not be expensive to do. The companies knowingly and willingly put their people at risk when ways to reduce the risk were known and not practiced.
Now to a real world problem. A friend and co-worker of mine recently lost his brother to Meso. His brother was a software guy and had no real exposure to asbestos and did not smoke. The only two things were that he played with cars when he was younger and his father did construction on a local college. They contacted one of those lawyers on TV and found there was a list of places and things. It turns out because the local college was on the list and his father worked there then he was considered at risk. Before he died he learned that his wife would receive some compensation because of this link.
One last thing.
Did renovations on my house. As part of the deal, I the homeowner, removed the asbestos siding from the house. The siding was bagged in special bags you had to get from the local landfill. You pay extra for the dump fees. They then throw it all in the big pile and crush it all in, possibly ripping the bags in the process.
People have been sold the idea that asbestos is a horrible thing. Recently I heard a lady could feel the asbestos on her skin. She worked in a school where they contained some asbestos. Most do not realize that they get more exposure from the dirt then they would ever get from insulation.
I talked to a guy who did asbestos remediation in buildings. He told me, I have not verified, that the problem was with the people who smoked. The people who smoked and worked around the asbestos were extremely likely to get asbestos. Those who did not smoke got it at a much lower rate. The rates were like 80% for smoker and 20% for non.
Remember smoking causes the cilia in the lungs to stop moving particles out of the lungs. Long term agitation by the mineral fibers causes the cancers.
These people that worked with it were coated with it. At the ship yards the coolest place was the asbestos storage room. I have been told the guys would eat lunch in the asbestos room cause it was cooler.
If brake dust was that bad then I think you would have a lot of people with problems today. So many guys did stints as a mechanic or even just doing their own brakes, plus what about all the stuff that just got out? The super fine powdered asbestos that you find from the brakes is not a real issue. The particles may be too small to be a problem and are easily removed from the lungs. Consider that most natural asbestos is a jagged mineral that would be harder to clear from the lungs. The brake particles are not large and probably not as jagged. (my guesses on the shapes)
Now we have to bear in mind that the hazards of asbestos were well known back in the day. The companies did not really offer any protection from the problem and I would bet the protection would not be expensive to do. The companies knowingly and willingly put their people at risk when ways to reduce the risk were known and not practiced.
Now to a real world problem. A friend and co-worker of mine recently lost his brother to Meso. His brother was a software guy and had no real exposure to asbestos and did not smoke. The only two things were that he played with cars when he was younger and his father did construction on a local college. They contacted one of those lawyers on TV and found there was a list of places and things. It turns out because the local college was on the list and his father worked there then he was considered at risk. Before he died he learned that his wife would receive some compensation because of this link.
One last thing.
Did renovations on my house. As part of the deal, I the homeowner, removed the asbestos siding from the house. The siding was bagged in special bags you had to get from the local landfill. You pay extra for the dump fees. They then throw it all in the big pile and crush it all in, possibly ripping the bags in the process.
Keith True
Well-known member
According to a truck/trailer rep for brake parts it has not been used for a few years.So,who really knows.I have been doing this stuff as a living for 35+ years,I never really thought too much about it until the last 10 years or so.When doing brakes,mostly 6 inch wide truck stuff,the first thing I would do was to blow them off with a good blowgun,not one of these osha approved 30 pound limited things.I just kept my head out of the cloud.I also opened the garage doors beforehand,winter or summer,I didn't want the smoke hanging around.I often wonder now about how these mechanics survived years ago.I know of some that died from lung problems,but what did it? The two packs of camels a day? The dozen stogies they had to keep going all day? The pipe that they relit 30 or 40 times a day? The welding and bodywork they did to make a car inspectable? I remember some parts cleaners that would make you keel right over if you got a direct breath of the fumes.No asbestos is good,but neither do I believe the chicken little-the sky is falling if you do a brake job as the TV would have you believe.My neighbor died of asbestosis,he was a pipefitter in a power plant for over 40 years.When fitting he had to wrap the steam pipes with asbestos and plaster,then grind,and trim to fit and look good.He was in a high exposure situation all his life.He was also a heavy smoker,he was actually diagnosed with lung cancer from the smoking,but the post-mortem found it to be asbestos buildup.Now his widow has the same thing,from limited exposure from washing his clothes.She always shook them out real good before they went into the machine.If she didn't they would make you itch after they were washed.My dad did asbestos siding in the late 60's.I did a lot of cutting for him as a kid.The dangers were either not known or not revealed then.We're still alive with no problems yet,but we are only 54 and 74 so time will tell.
2manycars
Well-known member
Asbestos has not been in brake linings for a long time. When it was, it was a problem, and not one "created" by the government. The short fibers get imbedded in the lungs, and cause cancer. I have a spot on my lung that the VA is watching. Going to get another cat scan next week. I asked what caused it, and the doc said most likely the brake dust from the ford garage 40 years ago. It takes a long time for cancer to arrive from irritation. I have never smoked at all.
Those who are so sure it is a scam or caused by lawyers should talk to someone who has the condition, and not just make wild claims on their own.
Those who are so sure it is a scam or caused by lawyers should talk to someone who has the condition, and not just make wild claims on their own.
skip
BANNED
It's not a concern on replacement brake linings. You might find an old set that does have a touch of asbestos. How much exposure from brake linings does the average Model 'A'er have? Maybe two, to six brake jobs in a lifetime? Just don't make a big dust cloud with the air hose and you'll be fine. You could always slip on a dust mask.
I worked at C.W. Post when the asbestos was removed from the nine buildings...we had men and women walking around in 'space suits' for half a year. All went to $$ hazardous waste piles to be concentrated and become even more dangerous. "The solution to pollution is dilution". Just common sense.
As grade school kids we use to pick the stuff off the steam pipes while waiting in line for lunch. They tore Golf Elementary Grade School down because it was deemed too costly to R&R the asbestos.
skip.
I worked at C.W. Post when the asbestos was removed from the nine buildings...we had men and women walking around in 'space suits' for half a year. All went to $$ hazardous waste piles to be concentrated and become even more dangerous. "The solution to pollution is dilution". Just common sense.
As grade school kids we use to pick the stuff off the steam pipes while waiting in line for lunch. They tore Golf Elementary Grade School down because it was deemed too costly to R&R the asbestos.
skip.
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Jerry Parr WI
Well-known member
I'm not a major fanatic on the topic but why take unnecessary risks. Asbestos has gotten a bad rap and although it does some things very well it is not without risks. I put it in the same class with fire. Occurs naturally, can be very beneficial, but can also kill you. Most people use fire every day and have not died from it. I believe in using both with a little caution.
Although asbestos linings have not been manufactured for some time if you are doing a brake job on a Model A you can be sure past ones used asbestos linings. If you buy old stock lining at a swap meet they very likely have asbestos. I err on the side of caution and assume I will be working with asbestos.
Asbestos is only a hazard airborne and only certain sized and shape particles. Lab tests being the only way to determine those, I assume the worst. I keep things wet when possible and avoid blowing the dust with air. Water or any solvent works fine to keep asbestos from becoming airborne. I wash the dust out with solvent as much as possible. The worst possible thing is to use a standard shop vac which breaks up the particles and makes them airborne. A hepa-vac with the proper filter is actually the preferred method. I don't own one but if I did lots of brakes I would.
I have a brake lining radius sander. When using it I take it outside and wear an approved mask. Still have some masks left from a commercial abatement project I was involved in so I wear them. Since the effects are lifetime cumulative I never work with my grandchildren in the area. They will get all they need without my help.
Although asbestos linings have not been manufactured for some time if you are doing a brake job on a Model A you can be sure past ones used asbestos linings. If you buy old stock lining at a swap meet they very likely have asbestos. I err on the side of caution and assume I will be working with asbestos.
Asbestos is only a hazard airborne and only certain sized and shape particles. Lab tests being the only way to determine those, I assume the worst. I keep things wet when possible and avoid blowing the dust with air. Water or any solvent works fine to keep asbestos from becoming airborne. I wash the dust out with solvent as much as possible. The worst possible thing is to use a standard shop vac which breaks up the particles and makes them airborne. A hepa-vac with the proper filter is actually the preferred method. I don't own one but if I did lots of brakes I would.
I have a brake lining radius sander. When using it I take it outside and wear an approved mask. Still have some masks left from a commercial abatement project I was involved in so I wear them. Since the effects are lifetime cumulative I never work with my grandchildren in the area. They will get all they need without my help.
mrtexas
Well-known member
The scam is not sick people getting compensated. It is the lawyers taking half and the people who may have been exposed and show no sign of a problem getting compensated.
The next big lawyer scam was going to be silicosis, however a courageous judge in Texas put an end to it when she exposed that the asbestos lawyers were recycling the same plaintiffs to collect for silicosis as well. Sometimes the system works.
The next big lawyer scam was going to be silicosis, however a courageous judge in Texas put an end to it when she exposed that the asbestos lawyers were recycling the same plaintiffs to collect for silicosis as well. Sometimes the system works.
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
The main reason for all those adds is to make lawyers rich, and a byproduct of that is to drive business overseas.
Ron in Quincy
Well-known member
I couldn't count on dozen hands the number of times I have used an air gun to blow out the asbestos dust from the backing plates over the years; was on a LST in the navy, all the bulkheads were lined with asbestos and painted, it was always sluffing off from being bumped. I have a set of brake shoes that a brake shop relined for me about 25 years ago using a soft woven asbestos lining that was made for motorcycles, it is oil and water resistant; they said when their stock was gone there wouldn't be any more available, so its been a lot of years that asbestos has not been in brake shoes. By the way, I intend to use my asbestos shoes some day. Not that its good, I've smoked for a lot of years and still do . So far, no problem with breathing. Guess I got good jeans passed on to me ; I'll be 82 in August.
Ron
Ron
I used to live in an area that was criss-crossed with 4 and 6-foot asbestos-concrete irrigation pipes, most of which were buried in the ground. The Bureau of Reclamation had to do this because of the water loss in porous volcanic soil when open ditches were first employed in the high desert. There were a lot of guys that worked on these project for 20-30 years. There was just enough variation in the fit of the joints that they usually had to ground them to fit during installtion. Imagine running a grinder on asbestos concrete with no mask outside for years.
A lot of these guys developed mesothelioma by the time they were 60 years old but, to my knowledge, only those that smoked.
A lot of these guys developed mesothelioma by the time they were 60 years old but, to my knowledge, only those that smoked.
George Iowa
Senior Member
Why take a chance? Just ware a dust mask when working on brakes.
BillLee/Chandler TX
Senior Member
Here is an excellent article on asbestos and its function in causing lung cancer. This is on the Center for Disease Control (CDC) website.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/asbestos/asbestos/health_effects/
Note-worthy are the following excerpts from the report:
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Significant exposure to any type of asbestos will increase the risk of lung cancer, mesothelioma and nonmalignant lung and pleural disorders, including asbestosis, pleural plaques, pleural thickening, and pleural effusions.This conclusion is based on observations of these diseases in groups of workers with cumulative exposures ranging from about 5 to 1,200 fiber-year/mL. Such exposures would result from 40 years of occupational exposure to air concentrations of 0.125 to 30 fiber/mL
...............
Tobacco smokers who have been exposed to asbestos have a "far greater-than-additive" risk for lung cancer than do nonsmokers who have been exposed, meaning the risk is greater than the individual risks from asbestos and smoking added together.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
(Bold and underline are mine for emphasis.)
Bottom line: the whole asbestos thing is a monstrous scam.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/asbestos/asbestos/health_effects/
Note-worthy are the following excerpts from the report:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Significant exposure to any type of asbestos will increase the risk of lung cancer, mesothelioma and nonmalignant lung and pleural disorders, including asbestosis, pleural plaques, pleural thickening, and pleural effusions.This conclusion is based on observations of these diseases in groups of workers with cumulative exposures ranging from about 5 to 1,200 fiber-year/mL. Such exposures would result from 40 years of occupational exposure to air concentrations of 0.125 to 30 fiber/mL
...............
Tobacco smokers who have been exposed to asbestos have a "far greater-than-additive" risk for lung cancer than do nonsmokers who have been exposed, meaning the risk is greater than the individual risks from asbestos and smoking added together.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
(Bold and underline are mine for emphasis.)
Bottom line: the whole asbestos thing is a monstrous scam.
Bill Goddard
Well-known member
Well, I guess I got a lot of good answers. I think the bottom line is avoid brake dust just to be safe especially with cars you are new to and don't know the history of the linings. Thanks to all. Bill G
Steve Miller
Member
Mesothelioma is not really a cancer of the lung, it is actually a cancer of the lining around the lung on the inside of the chest cavity known as the pleura. So if someone has lung cancer, especially if they smoke, it is likely not due to asbestos exposure. Approximately 20% of lung cancer patients have never smoked by the way.
Mesothelioma often doesn't show up for years (30-40) following asbestos exposure. The amount in brake linings is very small, and if you're not working with it every day I would imagine your risk is pretty low, but I don't believe there are any studies which show a "safe" exposure level.
I'm no expert on mesothelioma, but I am an M.D. and unfortunately my own Dad passed away from it Nov 27, 2007 while we were in the process of restoring a 1931 A pickup. He made it 2.5 years following his diagnosis and he never smoked.
Mesothelioma often doesn't show up for years (30-40) following asbestos exposure. The amount in brake linings is very small, and if you're not working with it every day I would imagine your risk is pretty low, but I don't believe there are any studies which show a "safe" exposure level.
I'm no expert on mesothelioma, but I am an M.D. and unfortunately my own Dad passed away from it Nov 27, 2007 while we were in the process of restoring a 1931 A pickup. He made it 2.5 years following his diagnosis and he never smoked.
Paul's Garage
Member
I am a certified Asbestos Inspector-Management Planner for the Kansas Schools and have been since 1987. Asbestos is like allot of things, using some common sense makes a big difference. The big thing in maintenance repairs of anything ACM (asbestos containing materials) is to work it wet. Normally in pipe lagging etc. you should spray it down with a soapy water solution so no fibers are released. Brakes of course wouldn't work well with this procedure,so the mechanics spray the heck out of it with brake clean, use the cheap stuff, wipe it down with paper towels and put the whole mess in a heavy trash bag. And don't kid yourself that the newer bake shoes and pads don't have asbestos either, many of them are made in Canada and Mexico, which don't have our laws controlling asbestos. Canada has huge asbestos mines. Steve McQueen died of asbestos lung cancer (fire suits, and being in the navy were what was normally blamed). I knew a local drywall finisher who died from it in his early 50's, the old drywall mud had it in it. I also knew old bus mechanics who suffered from it from all the old brakes, and clutches they had worked on. Did we all used to blow the heck out of the drums and linings when we replaced them, heck yes! Would I do it today, heck no! One problem is the 30-40 year latency period before it shows up, and yes smoking greatly increases your chances of problems. So guys its up to you, how much do you want to chance it?
Mitch//pa
BANNED
don't blow out any brake dust with an air blower. who wants to be breathing that stuff in. not to many years ago it was common practice for a mechanic to turn his bay into a cloud of brake dust. then they came out with the mineral spirits parts cleaner tub to wash it down with a brush. now there saying to wear gloves as the mineral spirits causes cancer.
Model T Monte
Senior Member
When I started in the oilfield we used to mix 40lbs bags of the stuf that was powderd into the mud systems. That was before law an order came out here to the dust bowl. It`s been 25-30 years since I`ve seen any of it, but I`m sure we mixed lots of things that weren`t up to snuf back then. We mixed ground up money, hog hair, rubber,cellophane,caustics, the list goes on. A little common sense goes a long ways. Monte
Marco Tahtaras
Well-known member
I am a certified Asbestos Inspector-Management Planner for the Kansas Schools and have been since 1987. Asbestos is like allot of things, using some common sense makes a big difference.
Keep in mind that years ago (at least what I've seen) it was rare for anyone to even wear any type of simple particle mask for ANYTHING they were doing. I saw masks gain SLOWLY in popularity beginning in the 1970's. Someone working in a brake shop in the days of grinding shoes would not only ingest all the airborne particulates from his several jobs a day, but that which was created by others working in the shop. While it's certainly a bad thing to ingest many such things, it doesn't hurt to be logical and put things in perspective. Anyone want to make an estimate as to how much a "professional" brake guy from the 1950's would ingest in a single year of his career compared to a hobbyist GRINDING one set of shoes today with a simple particle mask? The multiple has to be in the billions.
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
BTW, I think it was about the time I was a senior in high school when the law was changed, making it legal for lawyers to advertise on TV. At the time I thought that was a dumb law, but have now come to realise it was a law with good reason, and I wish it would be reinstated. We'd have a better and less expensive life without all those phoney lawsuits.