Model A color revisited

R

roadster31

Member
Good morning! I am still in the process of trying to pick a late 31 Standard Roadster color, I've narrowed the choices to Black, Brewster green, Dark Ford Maroon, when my lady walked behind me, poked a finger on the monitor and said "There, that one" I was looking at Marco's site when she spotted Thorn Browne. It is beautiful on the computer but I have only seen 1 car that was claimed to be Thorn Browne -- not good it looked like red wine with come chocolate in it. Does anyone have a modern paint color match? I want to get a half pint and shoot it on an old fender to get an idea how it looks on something big. Thanks in advance, E LaBrash
 
yeah, mix 9 parts of Black with 1 part of Ford Maroon and you will be close! :D

In all seriousness, it is a dark and very muddy brown that is almost black looking from a distance. Your PPG dealer can mix you a half-pint to do a spray out. He can obtain the formula from PPG.
 
Ask Peter at peters180/170B what color his old 1930 Roadster was, if it was Thorn Brown order a gallon and some blackwall tires. Bob
 
You can order a spray can of thorne brown in enamel or lacquer from Tower Paint in Wisc.. I ordered a couple in enamel to do the underside of my late 30 Std roadster (Avitar pic.).
 
OK thanks for the info guys, I am going to try thorn brown on a piece of sheet metal, might try some Brewster Green same time. EL
 
I recently spent about 3 months of work with the local PPG supplier for Thorne Brown and finely got a color that is closer to the original, that I found behind the dash, AND far closer than the color chip in the paint & finish guide. The bad news is I just looked on the paint can & they put no code on it!!!!!!!
If you have a problem getting it let me know.
Mon. I WILL be calling them to get the code for myself!
 
Thank you Russ, I don't think I have ever seen a good representation of the color but it sure looks great on Marco's site. That might be my computer monitor showing it's version, every once in a while I'll see a Model A with a color that is so perfect with that body style. Makes me wonder if that is just someone's interpretation (guess) from one of the small chips -- like Rubelite Red -- that is all the way from pink to orange. Like the Barner's are fond of saying, "it's your car, paint it the way you like." I wan't it close, it's going to be on there a long time -- I hope. EL
 
The thing to remember is the substrate color. Most of the mat'l used to make modern paints are very chromatic, and they seem a bit transparent at times. The primer or sealer color will make a major impact in the final "vibe" you wish to achieve. I've had many collegues ove the years tell me that I'm full of **** on this. Too bad they can't see, because the theory is akin to opaque plexiglass. Take a piece of colored plexi and you can't see through it, but hold it up to the sun and see it "light up". Same thing with the liquid plastic that our new paints are made of. I can't recall the color of Ford's primer, but you color choice will get depth and correct hue by spraying over a black base vs a light grey. It's subtle, but well worth the final vibe. You can see this in photos. Look at a nice maroon car that's been applied over the generic grey. All the lines disappear and it photographs like mud. But with a dark base and mixing correctly with enough transparent toners, it get nice and deep like the OEM lacquers were. Just an FYI. Good luck. I have a genuine 1929 and a 1930 color book from PPG. No mixes in the 29, but the 30 may have some. Another FYI, other OEMs used the same colors with different names.
 
theHIGHLANDER said:
The thing to remember is the substrate color. Most of the mat'l used to make modern paints are very chromatic, and they seem a bit transparent at times. The primer or sealer color will make a major impact in the final "vibe" you wish to achieve. I've had many collegues ove the years tell me that I'm full of **** on this. Too bad they can't see, because the theory is akin to opaque plexiglass. Take a piece of colored plexi and you can't see through it, but hold it up to the sun and see it "light up". Same thing with the liquid plastic that our new paints are made of. I can't recall the color of Ford's primer, but you color choice will get depth and correct hue by spraying over a black base vs a light grey. It's subtle, but well worth the final vibe. You can see this in photos. Look at a nice maroon car that's been applied over the generic grey. All the lines disappear and it photographs like mud. But with a dark base and mixing correctly with enough transparent toners, it get nice and deep like the OEM lacquers were. Just an FYI. Good luck. I have a genuine 1929 and a 1930 color book from PPG. No mixes in the 29, but the 30 may have some. Another FYI, other OEMs used the same colors with different names.
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Thanks for your insight. I was unaware PPG actually manufactured paint in the late 20's or early 30's under name of PPG. I was pretty sure that Ford manufactured (and supplied) his own paint products for his vehicles until around 1936 when he allowed Ditzler to supply his paint. Somewhere I have some old bodyshop books which I am thinking it shows PPG purchasing Ditzler in like 1947. I did find that intriguing regarding other OEM's colors. How did you ascertain that other auto manufacturers used the same colors as the Model A colors? Why I ask is if Ford was making (blending his own colors) to his proprietary specifications, do we have any theories how these other companies actually got his formulas??

You mentioned not remembering the primer colors. Ford actually had 'M-Specs' for several different primers but I am thinking the most common one for body panels would have been Red Oxide on sprayed lacquer panels. Dipped enamel panels had one dipping of a black colored primer followed by baking and then gloss enamel.

The one other question/comment I have is about the bases and your Maroon being opaque. While I have never tried it with Ford Maroon, we did an experiment several years ago with Black, and with Washington Blue where we three-coated PPG's DCC over a panel that was half covered with buff colored primer and the other half with a dark gray primer. The intent of the factory Paint Rep was to prove that the viscosity/purity of PPG's toners would cover better than their competitor's product. This was proved by us using their color spectrometer (Profit II) over the entire panel to see if it detected a color or hue difference between either side. None was detected. Since I had used other manufacturers (Matrix and DuPont single-stage), we knew at least those two have suggested tinting their primers prior to topcoat finishing because their paint was thinner. Therefore, do you feel your analogy regarding the substrate color applies to every manufacturer's product, --or just the ones you have sprayed? Thanks.

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Yer a smart cookie. I was too lazy to spell out Ditzler, and when PPG was involved is essentially irrelevant. I wasn't aware I needed to post a resume here, and yes red oxide was the primer color, also something that makes colors appear as they did back then. I reckon if you simply look at the color and figure it's done or good enough, none of what I had to say there makes a difference. But when folks wonder why their $800-1000 paint seems too new or fresh looking, the base tones may be the prime reason. I'm the 1st one in the line of folks that says I don't know everything, but for the record, I'll take the "Pepsi Challenge" with my work and show results any day of the week.

That aside, DuPont is more often lacking in the coverage/viscosity dept. Their clear is a major PITA to show prep. The old RM, oh, pardon me, Rinshed-Mason, was inconsistant and slow to cure. House of Kolor used to have an incomparable "wetness" to the final finish until Valspar rolled in and took over. I hear they're makin it right though and we'll have that back soon. PPG lacquer lost it's trace metals back in the early 90s, but their 9300 black and DCA 468 clear remains unchanged for well over 30yrs. The furniture/musical instrument industry is a big customer for those 2 products. But hey, don't take my word for it. Here I was calling a product by a generic name in the post above. I'll go stand in the corner and leave the expert opinions on paint to you.
 
theHIGHLANDER said:
Yer a smart cookie. I was too lazy to spell out Ditzler, and when PPG was involved is essentially irrelevant. I wasn't aware I needed to post a resume here, and yes red oxide was the primer color, also something that makes colors appear as they did back then. I reckon if you simply look at the color and figure it's done or good enough, none of what I had to say there makes a difference. But when folks wonder why their $800-1000 paint seems too new or fresh looking, the base tones may be the prime reason. I'm the 1st one in the line of folks that says I don't know everything, but for the record, I'll take the "Pepsi Challenge" with my work and show results any day of the week.

That aside, DuPont is more often lacking in the coverage/viscosity dept. Their clear is a major PITA to show prep. The old RM, oh, pardon me, Rinshed-Mason, was inconsistant and slow to cure. House of Kolor used to have an incomparable "wetness" to the final finish until Valspar rolled in and took over. I hear they're makin it right though and we'll have that back soon. PPG lacquer lost it's trace metals back in the early 90s, but their 9300 black and DCA 468 clear remains unchanged for well over 30yrs. The furniture/musical instrument industry is a big customer for those 2 products. But hey, don't take my word for it. Here I was calling a product by a generic name in the post above. I'll go stand in the corner and leave the expert opinions on paint to you.
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No need to get 'snotty' about it. I sure wasn't!! I thanked you twice for your insight and shared knowledge with us, ...and I asked you a couple of questions based on your comments. One of them was do you feel that all paint manufacturer's lines are affected by the substrate or primer. In your first post you said it will make a difference. In this one you said it may make a difference. I simply shared in my post that this is one of the sales techniques that PPG's reps used to show us that in their single-stage DCC line that they feel it really doesn't make a difference.

As far as needing a resume', of course not. You stated that you could not remember the color of Ford's primer, and I just reminded you that it was Red Oxide on body panels. You also stated that other auto manufacturers were using Ford's colors but under different names. I thought that was interesting and was curious how you found that out because I had never heard that.

On a more personal note, I hear you guys lost your Tony's Coneys there on the corner of Monroe & Grafton. What are y'all gonna do now?? :eek: I guess as long as nothing happens to that little ice cream shop in the blue building (Dairy Delight??), y'all will be able to survive this tragedy!! ;) :D Take care...

.
 
Hey, sorry. It sounded like you were less than receptive or sincere. I get that a lot and the anonymity of the net can add to it. I really have been at this my entire carreer. Several finishers I've worked with can't see what was talking about. Worked with a guy who insisted that the black base on a 2003 Vette hood was fine for a Torch Red refinish. I even had the white basecoat ready for him to spray as a 1st coat and he simply refused. 6 coats later (!) he felt it was covered enough, and even in the evening shop conditions I could see it was way off. 3 coats over white was dead-on-balls...and the OEM stuff was white under the red! It looked like brick next to a tomato and he STILL refused the believe it was the base.

I tend to stay with one product line or company. None of this is trouble free, it's chemistry and prone to failure when you least expect it. Did a HOK clear that took 4 months to dry. Did a Ditzler lacquer job on a 1-of-a-kind Packard that refused to get hard enough to polish to show quality. I heated, force aired, sanded and heated, nothing. Had to strip and refinish, and we stripped with heat and peeling it off like shelf paper in an old farm house. PPG paid us for that one.

Again, I'm sorry for gettin snappy there, but when keeping mil thickness to a minimum (long life) the substrate's color matters. Not to imply that we can get away with less coats, just that paint has never been a "if some's good more's better" process. Also, any early color has that natural dirty or muddy look to it no matter how vivid the shade is. I've always equated that to the binder in the early mat'l as being like pale beer in color. That greenish gold tone adds an element to a natural 30s finish that most can't quite determine what it is, but the vibe is there.


And Tony's? Yeah, gone to make room for a dollar store. After being here 9yrs I think I went there twice due more to my work schedule than anything else, but Mrs Highlander misses it already. We still got the "Blue Sky" burger n ice cream joint in Huron for Thur cruise nites. Somehow, hittin the Monroe Sonic drive in isn't the same.
 
Not to highjack the thread, but I have a paint question. I Had a Harley painted in 93 with House of color purple clear over what I guess was a generic metallic silver. If I recall correctly it was 3 coats silver 9 coats purple clear. Was able to wet sand and buff to a glasslike finish, but to this day if it sits in the sun for a prolonged time, the paint gets really soft, and you can press your fingernail into it and leave an indent, why is that??
 
Steve Wastler said:
Not to highjack the thread, but I have a paint question. I Had a Harley painted in 93 with House of color purple clear over what I guess was a generic metallic silver. If I recall correctly it was 3 coats silver 9 coats purple clear. Was able to wet sand and buff to a glasslike finish, but to this day if it sits in the sun for a prolonged time, the paint gets really soft, and you can press your fingernail into it and leave an indent, why is that??
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Well it has been a LONG time ago since I was painting with House of Kolor stuff, --or even doing candy stuff on show cars, so I am not sure what they did on your bike but in my mind, there should have been the base (the metalic silver) and then the color (the purple) and then the clear. The shade of purple would/should have been affected by the number of coats of toner they applied (more coats equals darker color) and then it would/should have been followed up with a clear to bury all the graphics/etc. What puzzles me in what you are saying is that if the purple was colorsanded, it would likely have made it "blotchy" due to uneven mil thicknesses. Therefore it should have been only the clear that was color sanded. Maybe not but that was the way I was taught.

To answer your question specifically regarding the clear being soft, it is all about how the clear "shells" up. Different manufacturers offer different types. Softer paints/clears tend not to sand as flat (not as big of a deal on a contoured surface such as a m/c tank) which means they don't produce a 'deep' look like a harder shelling paint/clear does. I like the harder shell of a paint surface because they can be block sanded straighter and resist chatter (waves) when machine buffing them out. The downside to a harder shell is they tend to be more prone to chips and trauma (rocks chips, nicks, scratches) from usage.
 
Steve Wastler said:
Not to highjack the thread, but I have a paint question. I Had a Harley painted in 93 with House of color purple clear over what I guess was a generic metallic silver. If I recall correctly it was 3 coats silver 9 coats purple clear. Was able to wet sand and buff to a glasslike finish, but to this day if it sits in the sun for a prolonged time, the paint gets really soft, and you can press your fingernail into it and leave an indent, why is that??
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How hard do you have to press? When HOK 1st started to offer "compliant" catalyst formulas there was a hardness issue with the final coatings. Is it really hard when cool? How long in the direct sun? Urethanes by nature will remain resilient and get just a little soft in extreme heat, but you'd have to press real hard to make an impression.

Other than a strip/refinish, sand it with 1500 paper and let it sit in the sun for a day. Smell it when it's hot. If solvents are sweating out that would be the issue. The other issue could be as simple as the painter forgetting to add catalyst in the last coats.
 
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