newbie questions

Hi Bruce.

We do not have a manual but will probably buy one soon.

9 o'clock is around ours likes to idle currently or what i'm calling 3/4s of the way down.

I would say with spark fully advanced it runs nice at 45, however I also like the idea of having a little extra headroom so I know when i'm as advanced as possible for the conditions. The truck actually overheated on a pretty long incline not when just going full out on a flat highway.

I will need to look into the radiator issue. shouldn't be too hard i'd assume? pull cap off and run engine at a higher rpm and watch to see if the water level comes up too much. I've got a feeling its the original radiator.

I really appreciate all the help guys. I'd be lost without this forum.
 
MrTube said:
Bob A. Since I feel my timing is correctly set can you tell me why you think it may be off?

I will double check it with the truck comes back. The hardest part for me was the backlash in the gear. I set it a few times and had it way too advanced just due to the pressure I put against the gear with the cam screw.

I just want a little more information on exactly what i'm looking for. How the timing lever should act at idle would be good. Should it idle rough full advance, should i be able to run full advance at idle without it getting rough and so on.
Click to expand...


Follow Chris's advice. When I set up my timing I use a vacuum gauge for a final check.This is what I have at idle with spark retarded
 
Last edited:
MrTube said:
I believe timing should be about right. It idles best with the timing lever around 3/4 of the way advanced. If you go further it gets rough. We pull it all the way down when cruising and it definitely likes it. When I first started working on the truck someone had the timing so far off it wouldn't even run fully retarded. When I set it after doing some reading I went a little more advanced then stock.




pat in Santa Cruz : why 3/4 of the way advanced at 50? ours definitely seems happier fully advanced at any rpm and load above 1K.
Click to expand...

I was going to suggest reading the Ford "MODEL "A" INSTRUCTION BOOK," but I see Bruce did. It covers all the details abut properly driving a Model A.

What you hear from so many sources about pulling the lever all the way down after starting is common and is evidence that hearsay is not always correct.

The extra movement below the 3/4 mark was designed to allow more advance when the point block wears down, which also retards the spark. Follow the link I posted above to Marco's site for the best instructions on timing the distributor, paying attention to the backlash. Yours definitely sounds retarded to me. It should idle and run around town at half mast, and move down to 3-4 clicks above the bottom for highway speed. A click or two back from 3/4 on a hard hill climb will help protect the rod bearings.
 
Ok so putting together some notes of what I need to take care of. When truck comes back i'll reset timing as per everyones instructions.

Are the model A's supposed to have thermostats? I'm planning to buy one from Bratton's and am assuming the 160F is my best bet.

In regards to the radiator. I will do some testing but assuming the radiator is plugged some, is it best to buy a new one from Bratton's or is it possible to flush\clean the old one?
 
thermostats are a good idea, although the A came without them. Its far less expensive if the radiator shop can repair a radiator than to replace it. Only a shop familiar with old style radiators could tell you which you need to do. If you have a club chapter nearby, ask around who the best shop is.
 
Mr. Tube (very unusual name, your parents must have hated kids),

Take your old radiator to a GOOD radiator shop and ask them wwhat they recommend. If you would update your profile to include your general location and/post your general location someone might recommend a GOOD radiator shop.

Charlie Stephens
 
Regards thermostats like everything Model A opinions vary. I (and every other motor manufacturer since about 1932) think they a good idea. They mean quicker warm up and its cold running that hurts engines , Less sludging and better performance by keeping the operating temperature optimal. People talk about thermostat failure but if this (rare event) happens they fail open not closed. Other modifications I have which I feel (invisably) improve drivability of the A is modern points/ condensor set up ,Brake Floaters, Lightened flywheel and 3.54 Rear end.
 
"People talk about thermostat failure but if this (rare event) happens they fail open not closed".

Karl I beg to differ with you on the thermostat failure. I had a few that stuck closed on the road with cars in the sixties. I had a '63 Nova that I had to remove the upper hose and smash the thermostat open with a 3/8" extension so that I could continue driving.
 
Mr. Tube, your timing range may be too retarded. You should not have to pull the lever down 3/4 for a good idle.

BUT, before going over the timing routine again check to see if all your lever control mechanisms are working as originally made. The total timing advance allowed by the lever movement is from 0 to 40 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center). When the lever is fully retarded on the quadrant, the control arm protruding out of the slot on the dist. body should be all the way over to one side of the slot. Likewise, when you fully advance the lever on the quadrant, the control arm protruding out of the dist. should be all the way on the opposite side of the slot.

Due to wear, being bent, improperly made repro parts, improper restoration, etc., these control mechanisms are often screwball and the setting on the quadrant may not correspond to the position of the arm on the slot. For example, you may have to move the lever a short distance on the quadrant and take up some wear before the dist. arm even moves. What may look like being fully advanced may not be fully advanced at all or even 3/4, etc..

So check all this out first. Then we'll talk about the timing.

Now for the overheating:

There are many reasons besides the timing being too retarded that cause overheating. In fact, during the Model A days, Ford distributed a list of more than 80 possible causes of overheating!

Here's a few of them:

Fan belt loose or slipping (This has fooled a many of 'em)

Low on oil (Yes .. oil quantity affects engine temperature)

Gas mixture too rich for one reason or another

Clogged radiator (or maybe too many tubes have been cut out of it for repairs in the past)

Poor compression or compression leaks .....

Run a compression test and see what you get.

Also, here's a quick way to tell if the head gasket is leaking hot combustion gases into the water. Get someone to help you while you control the car:

First, remove the radiator cap and make sure the water level is high enough for you to see it. Then remove the fan belt. Next, have your assistant stand in front of the radiator so he can look at the water and report what he sees.

Next, you get in the car and start the engine. After it warms up good enough to run, push in the clutch, shift into reverse and continue to hold the clutch down. Put your other foot ON THE BRAKE and leave it there! Next, move the throttle lever with your hand and race up the engine a little AND at the same time, let out on the clutch a little like you're trying to back up BUT hold the car back with your foot on the brake. This will put a load on the engine.

Now .... while all this is happening, have your friend observe the water in the radiator for bubbles and/or foaming bubbles. If they are seen, race up the engine a little more (but still hold the car back firmly with the brake) and see if the bubbles increase.

The presence of bubbles indicate whether or not there's a leak.

Larry B
 
Bob A. said:
"People talk about thermostat failure but if this (rare event) happens they fail open not closed".

Karl I beg to differ with you on the thermostat failure. I had a few that stuck closed on the road with cars in the sixties. I had a '63 Nova that I had to remove the upper hose and smash the thermostat open with a 3/8" extension so that I could continue driving.
Click to expand...
Thats the good thing about this list you learn something all the time . However now makes me worry about my Thermostats-Karl
 
How long has it been since the radiator had been cleaned out? if the truck has been sitting for a while, water could have caused rust.
 
If you radiator really is clogged, flushing or boiling it out will probably not work. As I mentioned in my earlier post, really clogged tubes need to be rodded by someone who knows how to do it without busting out the tubes. If a significant number are clogged, it could definitely be part of your problem.
 
I agree with John L., a original radiator, after all these years, could not be cooling properly; fins become loose from the tubes so no transfer of heat, tubes become plugged; suggest you get the radiator to a radiator shop and have it checked out. More good engines are ruined by people trying to use an old radiator.
 
"Thats the good thing about this list you learn something all the time . However now makes me worry about my Thermostats-Karl"


Do you realize how many billions of thermostats have been in use since the 1940s? :)




"The total timing advance allowed by the lever movement is from 0 to 40 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center). When the lever is fully retarded on the quadrant, the control arm protruding out of the slot on the dist. body"


See now theres something else conflicting with what I read somewhere. I had read the control gives 20 degrees of advance.

In regards to the radiator. Anyone know a good shop in new jersey who could take care of this for me?
 
Mr. Tube wrote: "See now there's something else conflicting with what I read somewhere. I had read the control gives 20 degrees advance."

Conflicting? ....... conflicting in your mind only!

I assure you, Sir, if I write anything on this board, it is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH or I don't write it!

This goes for many others as well in no particular order .... Vince Falter, Marco Tahtaras , George Miller, Rainmaker Ron, Terry Burtz, Bill Brock just to name a few. There are many others, too many to name.

Since you read so much, you need to go somewhere else and read some more.

Just my opinion.


Larry Brumfield

P.S. Do you realize how many millions of thermostats have STUCK CLOSED since the 1940's?
 
Last edited:
Mr Brumfield,

With all due respect I didn't intend to offend you or suggest you were wrong.

The same site which said to fully advance timing as soon as vehicle starts had mentioned 20 degrees of travel.

With all i've heard about you I have no doubt what you say is true. I apologize for the miscommunication and am sorry if I offended you.

"I assure you, Sir, if I write anything on this board, it is the GOSPEL TRUTH or I don't write it!

This goes for many others as well in no particular order .... Vince Falter, Marco Tahtarus , George Miller, Rainmaker Ron, Terry Burtz, Bill Brock just to name a few. There are many others, too many to name. "

And that is why I am here asking for help. Doing what others had suggested elsewhere flat out has not worked. The members here are the ones who know what they are doing and do things right.
 
Last edited:
MrTube said:
Chris in CT : See now thats the kind of timing advance I would expect. But the instructions to start a Model A threw me off. They say once it starts to pull the timing lever all the way down and leave it there which lead me to believe it should idle fine full advanced.


Interesting. This also tells me I wasn't as far off due to backlash as I had thought the first try. Why do all of the "to start a model A" instructions tell you either full advance or 3/4 advance after starting?
Click to expand...

"...them things that you're liable to read in the bible, they ain't necessarily so..." What instructions, Mr. Tube, and who wrote them?
There is certainly alot of good written material out there for Model A owners, but there is also some misinformation. Get into a good club with some good experienced members, and make use of their collective experience. Happy Motoring!
 
I could not help but add my 2 cents. You need to determine what comes first the chicken or the egg. That is, does the engine get hot and boil the water out or do you first lose water and then the engine gets hot due to the lack of water? I would first try to discover the reason of the water loss. I would recommend going to your local auto parts store and buying a radiator reservoir overflow tank. They cost around $10. One end of the clear plastic hose connects to the bottom of the radiator overflow tube on the driver’s side bottom of the radiator just in front of and below the generator. The other end of the plastic hose connects to the tank and you can hang the tank on one of the radiator support rods. After driving 15-20 min. check the tank and see if you have water in it. If it does then the radiator is not able to digest the amount of flow from the pump. If there is no water in the overflow tank and you are low water then you have a problem internal to the engine.

With what I have read in your replies, my bet is that you have a radiator problem and you are blowing water out the overflow.

The reason I say this is that I have a brand new aftermarket radiator on my pickup and it cannot keep up with the flow rate of the pump at highway speeds (45-50 mph) . I even have a thermostat installed… So on my other Model A (Roadster) I installed a Heavy duty radiator and I don’t have that problem. As a check I even switched out the water pumps. So what I’m saying is if anyone were restoring a Model A I would strongly advise spending the extra dollars and buy the Heavy Duty radiator…

Good Luck and Please let us know what you find out as the problem..
 
Doug, Thankyou for your response. We will be looking into the radiator this weekend. I have heard of a trick where you block the bottom outlet, fill the radiator and then see how fast it can empty? I'm told it should completely empty in 4 seconds?

Also Mr Brumfield had mentioned checking the timing control's travel. This had reminded me of an issue with the throttle. I had to bend the throttle linkage near the carburetor as it was bent way back and only allowing around 30% throttle.

Even unbent I cannot get it to open the throttle 100% without causing it to have the opposite effect (won't allow it to close fully). The most I could get was around 80%. Is this normal or is something else restricting pedal movement?
 
As for the linkages, I have seen several aftermarket throttle linkages that were shorter that the original and result in the problem that you are having. You need to disconnect the linkage and hold closed the throttle arm on the carb and then measure the optimum position of the arm that connects to the foot pedal. With that said, I have to ask why do you want the throttle to open 100% and any more than you currently have if you are already able to obtain speeds of 50 MPH? I don't know what type of bearings you have (Babbitt or Inserted) or if you have a balanced crank, etc. But let’s say that you have original Babbitt and an original un-modified crank, pushing your Model A at speeds in excess of 50 mph is not a healthy practice. You are causing a lot of stress on a beautiful old engine…
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top