VIN location on frame?

31 Woody

31 Woody

Senior Member
A friend of mine pulled the body off her coupe today to see the VIN (needed for DMV). It wasn’t where we thought it would be under the drivers side cowl. There is some heavy paint and probably filler or lots of primer that could be hiding it. Prior to removing a bunch of paint and other under coats, it would be helpful to know the precise, measured location so she knows exactly where to to focus. Does anyone have any measurements that would precisely locate the VIN on the left rail? Thank you.
 
My understanding is that there was no precise requirement for where on the frame it was stamped, rather it was towards the back of the engine and under the cowl, on the top of the left frame rail. Here’s a pic of one of my frame rails, note that the number is approximately centered above the tab for the brake anti-rattler.
 

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Sometimes it has been eroded by rust and sandblasting to remove the rust. I have had various frames that no serial number could be seen. Surviving almost 100 years in all kinds of conditions, it is amazing any show up. Governments should take this into consideration.
 
I just passed a Vin verification, at my DMV, using the stamp on the engine. That is an acceptable location.
 
it may not be there at all a lot of them were never stamped.

some dark night. buy a set of amazon 1/4 stamps and the star and stamp the engine serial number on the top of the frame just back of the steering box where the cowl would sit on it.
 
Here's mine--the original, barely legible, duplicate on the frame behind the X, and readily visible on the firewall. The officer who verified the number said he would record only what he could see.
 

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I cannot advise a person to do something that may be unlawful but I would recommend at least purchasing some stamps that duplicate the originals. Just be aware the the odd 1, 6, and 9 stamps were only used after a certain date. Some manufacturers make those that have the correct looking number 3 and 4 so If you are on a budget do some research.
https://restostamps.com/collections...cGowmjnwHoszl-KOEIa9NAQaLT0pBwnqmyzf7KJhe3Hu8

When stamps are used on a piece of flat steel, the impressions change the bond grains of the metal there and make it more dense. Shallow impressions can be brought back in view by forensic methods that have been used for decades. The denser impressions generally always show back up well enough to confirm a known number or at least one that can be partially identified.

If a person has a title then they at least know what they are looking for. As to another comment about no numbers ever being stamped, I'd have to say that all Ford branch plants were very uniform in their instructions and in quality control. I doubt if very many frames got by without numbers stamped to match the installed engine during production. The bare replacement frames are another story. No frame was stamped unless and engine was attached to it. Ford did make replacement parts and Ford dealers generally had the authorized stamps to ID mark replacement blocks and frames for the customers that needed them. Only assembled engines were marked at the Rouge following the successful testing of that engine. Spare parts were not marked.

All frames had the cotton strap webbing type welting applied on top before the running board aprons were installed. I'm sure this webbing was treated when new but most of us know that over time, the webbing will deteriorate and start to attract moisture. Depending on the climate conditions where it spent most of it's life and how well it was maintained, it could look very solid or it could be badly pebbled with heavy corrosion. Not much surface area will survive heavy corrosion, so it's the luck of the draw when looking for such things as frame numbers.
 
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I hope the title shows the serial number that is on the engine... if it does the DMV should accept that as the actual Ford Owners Manual states: "ENGINE NUMBER
The engine number is stamped on the left side of the cylinder
block just above the cylinder inlet connection. The engine
number is also the serial number of the car."

Check out this link...Page 6 of the manual. https://mafca.com/instructionbooks/
 
At least here in the People's Republic, how a VIN number is verified at title transfer seems to vary between offices of the DMV. If you are transferring a car from a CA owner to another CA owner, it can generally be done without physical verification at all. Verifying for registration for a vanity or Year of Manufacture plate can be more problemmatic. I haven't tried to do it yet, but I hear that "good" DMVs will go by engine number, while others require you to go to the Highway Patrol to have them do a more involved inspection. Henry's admonition that the engine number is the car's serial number does not seem to hold any weight at all with anyone. Having said that, I have not heard of anyone having to lift a body off the frame to have the number verified. (Some folks in CA that I know of do a surreptitious additional stamp of the number on a portion of the frame or crossmember so it's visible when assembled...)

As far as transfer of an out-of-state title to California, the CA DMV website says that VIN verification is required, and it can be done at a DMV office or by a licensed VIN Verifier. However, club members just got a new (to them) 1931 Town Sedan from Illinois and DMV apparently refused to verify, stating that a new law required that California Highway Patrol do the VIN verification. A second club member, who is a licensed VIN verifier, confirmed this change. No problems (other than time and hassle), they got it done by CHP and it was titled under the "A" number, not a new 14-digit VIN. I don't know how that would work if it came from another state that didn't title older cars.
 
31 Woody said:
A friend of mine pulled the body off her coupe today to see the VIN (needed for DMV). It wasn’t where we thought it would be under the drivers side cowl. There is some heavy paint and probably filler or lots of primer that could be hiding it. Prior to removing a bunch of paint and other under coats, it would be helpful to know the precise, measured location so she knows exactly where to to focus. Does anyone have any measurements that would precisely locate the VIN on the left rail? Thank you.
Click to expand...
here you go for your answer.!
 

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I've had a few that were never stamped.A poultry farmer here in town came here from Canada,in the 60's,and brought his collection of junk with him.I wound up with most of it in the late 80's,and none of the frames were stamped.Right now I have the cleanest frame I've ever had,it was under the coupe that was wrecked in the fire.That frame shows no sign of a number or sanding and filling to get rid of it.The subframe number says it was assembled in Somerville Mass.
 
Shields Up !! She may be heading for registration hell. ID numbers did not become VIN numbers until 1956. All Model As had the engine number stamped on the frame during assembly. I have been told Canadian built As did not have the frame stamped. The issue with engine ID numbers on Model As is that they are approaching 100 years old and many very likely had one or more engine changes in which the original number was not restamped on the new engine. Here in Florida the VIN verification simply consists of the DMV girl going out to your car to look at the engine number - done. They have no clue of the history of early Ford ID numbers or frame verifications. This procedure here, and in most states, only applies if the vehicle was purchased out of state. Engine rebuilders usually offer to stamp any number you wish on a rebuilt engine. I have heard horror stories of DMVs refusing to allow registration if title numbers do not match actual vehicle numbers - or if there is no number, for fear the vehicle may have been stolen. The only advise I could offer is talk to the local DMV in advance and find out specifically what the rules and procedures are at that location. With justification, some states will issue a VIN much like on kit cars. If the engine numbers agree with the title it might be worth going to a country DMV to complete the paper work. Not heard from me, but a little adjustment of the number on the engine is not all that unusual. Let us know how the caper ends. Good Luck.
 
California does have a process where CHP can assign an ID number to a car, and affix a plate stamped with that number. That number then becomes part of the title. I saw a Model A brought into California from Oregon that was so titled.

31 Woody, you might see if your friend would be willing to go that route.
 
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Some frames were never stamped. The ONLY FACTORY location of the serial number on the Model A was the number that was stamped on the engine when it passed QC. That number was also stamped on most of the frames but hidden under the body. Is there any DOCUMENTATION why? It was useless for registration as it has to be easily seen. Did other countries have laws in place for the number to appear elsewhere. Over the past 90 years I'm certain that some owners have used the "factory" stamp kits that are available to stamp "their" number in various locations. Prior to the mid 60s there was no standardization of serial numbers or location. Some manufactures used engine numbers and others body numbers. Once the highway act took effect they required a VIN on the chassis that could be read through the windshield and a standardization of the numbering system
Your DMV needs to dig into their archives or find an old guy who knows what the law was back when. You need to arm yourself with some documents to show your local DMV that the serial number was located ONLY on the engine. The number on the frame is useless as it can't be seen with the body on.
Some people add one of those aluminum tags to the frame or body with what ever their paperwork says just because for the last 60 years chassis/frame numbers have been used. It's even funny when you see an assigned VIN tag on a body. Current DMV types are used to unibody cars not one that the chassis and body are 2 separate things.
PS. never forget the kid that has been working the counter for 2 weeks knows everything. Explain but don't challenge or you'll get stuck in a never ending loop of red tape.
 
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JayJay said:
California does have a process where CHP can assign an full 14-digit VIN to a car, and affix a plate stamped with that number. That VIN then becomes part of the title. I saw a Model A brought into California from Oregon that was so titled.

31 Woody, you might see if your friend would be willing to go that route.
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All states can issue ID numbers to vehicles. They are not the 17 digit Federal VIN numbers that each digit can be deciphered to how and where the car was built. It's generally done because it's easier than educating the DMV inspector. Or there is no existing paperwork on the parts the car is assembled from. Using the number from an engine you don't know the whole history on can end up with 2 cars registered with the same serial number - or worse the car had been reported stolen so they take your entire car not just the engine.


Our Coupe has an assigned ID number.
 

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Henry's admonition that the engine number is the car's serial number does not seem to hold any weight at all with anyone.

Even NJ gladly registered my car....of course in NJ we have numerous offices to choose from...maybe I was lucky. Photo of the number that was on the title (no one asked where the number was) and "have a nice day". I am lucky my engine is original to the car so the title shows that number.
 
ModelA29 said:
All states can issue ID numbers to vehicles. They are not the 17 digit Federal VIN numbers that each digit can be deciphered to how and where the car was built. It's generally done because it's easier than educating the DMV inspector. Or there is no existing paperwork on the parts the car is assembled from. Using the number from an engine you don't know the whole history on can end up with 2 cars registered with the same serial number - or worse the car had been reported stolen so they take your entire car not just the engine.


Our Coupe has an assigned ID number.
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Thanks for the clarification. I corrrected my post.
 
I lifted the body on my 30 Town Sedan to take the front fenders off for painting. While there I verified the serial number on the frame and took a photo. I have the original engine in my shop with the same serial number. Both numbers are the same as the paperwork. I stamped the same number on the Burtz block when I installed that. I used the original stamps.

So my question is, can I stamp the serial number on the side of the frame where it can be seen by any DMV or highway patrol person without removing the body?
 
nkaminar said:
I lifted the body on my 30 Town Sedan to take the front fenders off for painting. While there I verified the serial number on the frame and took a photo. I have the original engine in my shop with the same serial number. Both numbers are the same as the paperwork. I stamped the same number on the Burtz block when I installed that. I used the original stamps.

So my question is, can I stamp the serial number on the side of the frame where it can be seen by any DMV or highway patrol person without removing the body?
Click to expand...

I have seen the number stamped on the top of the left side motor mount, which can be regarded as a component of the frame. Easier to lift the hood as compared to the left side body.
 
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