General Question on Paint and Body Work Costs

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

How long will it be before the insurance companies decide a car is a total loss just based on paint damage?

I think we are already there.

Again, there is such a price differential between the value of a typical Model-A found for sale vs. a truly restored Model-A (-not necessarily a 100% authentic restoration but for just a correctly and thoroughly restored). The price between the two types are SO far apart.

Think about this for a moment. Most collector car insurance companies will insure a Model-A Street Rod for $100k but will balk at and refuse insuring a Fine-point winning Model-A for $100k. To professionally restore a Fine-point car will rival the costs to professionally build a Street Rod. Why the difference? I think it is because so many Model-A owners have set the bar so low because they only insured their Model-A for $10k-$15k (-which we all know is unrealistic) and it has set the trend of what the insurers perceive the market values are.

What about the plastic film? Paul Shinn has a video showing a Model A being covered with plastic film. Sort of like heat shrink covering. The car would still need to be prepped to the point where it could be painted. But plastic film instead of paint.

Neil, it honestly is not any cheaper. We use wraps (-the plastic film) on our race cars, and the reason we do is the lettering and graphics are integral. Around here, complete vehicle wraps cost between $3k-$5k for film material & installation labor. As you mentioned, the surface must be paint ready. Most wraps have a life expectancy of about 5 years.

Here is something that some may find interesting that is related to this. My enclosed trailer needs to be painted, so I priced wrapping it with red film to match my pickup, and I was over $2,500 for materials alone to wrap a 24' trailer myself. Because the aluminum is just fading, I can scuff the trailer with a Scotchbrite on a DA, shoot it with a light coat of 2k Epoxy, then a medium grade Red basecoat, followed by a decent high-solids Clear. All costs totaled, I will likely be into the paint & materials for near the same money as the film material cost. The benefit is, the paint will likely outlast the film by 2-3 times as long. The irony on this is that I even debated about reskinning the entire trailer, and our costs on 4'x10' colored aluminum sheeting is about $150 a panel. I would need 6 panels per side and 4 panels for front and rear door. So 16 panels at $150.00 per panel comes in around $2400 plus screws & sealant. By the time the R&R labor was factored in, paint seems like the most feasible cost option. I think for Model-As, the same applies with paint over film.

 

[ronn]

terrific thread with some very valid points............


David, I was going to say what Brent just said, we are already there. My wifes 17 altima had a side airbag blow at a 4 way........ car was totalled. Of course I bought it back and its driven daily. one has to question common sense anymore. at least here in the USA, it doesnt much exist. Poorer countries find a way........
Kube, terrific point on using the best paint one can afford, as its mostly in the labor.
finally, yes the paints used these days are "too good". a model A was never painted from the factory as it is today. same with all of the cars at a show. Mercers had brushed paint, but today its a 2 1/2 million dollar car so the owner puts a 100k paint job on it. over restored might be the "key term".

 

[Kube]

Unfortunately with the modern paints I see mini clear coats Peeling within 10-15 years to me that's not acceptable!!!

There are simple reasons for that.
Primarily:
Incorrect chemicals. In other words, incompatibility issues.
Two, coatings were not applied correctly.
Three, poor quality chemicals were utilized.

I literally have cars I'd painted base / clear from the late 1980's that appear every bit as nice as the day they were painted.

 

[Kube]

I have posted this link here before, but Hemmings posted this article a couple of years ago. It also confirms what others are trying to say.


https://www.hemmings.com/stories/time-is-money/

I just read that, thanks for the posted link.

That article is spot on. Heck, I could have written that from my experience.
The numbers stated in that article were very close to what I have experienced as well.
I'd restored seventeen cars to date, each one to a concourse level.
Heck, the statement in regard to block sanding adding as much as $12k, even $15k to the final tab is accurate.
Some of you may have spotted a nice appearing '40 sedan delivery on BringATrailer a couple of weeks ago. At first look, that car appeared beautiful. Look just a little closer and the lack of professional blocking became very apparent. Sadly, after all the preparation work that was done, the blocking was subpar and it showed. Lack of requisite talent? Lack of willing investment? Either way, just one more example why there are few true #1 cars.
I zeroed in on the statement in regard to race cars and how fast do you want to go = how much money you have to spend.
In the restoration world, a great and rather accurate rule of thumb is:
Restoring a car to 90% costs X amount of money. Restoring a car to 100% costs 2X. In other words, double the cost for that last 10%.
That "formula" is quite accurate.
That is the main reason there are so few TRUE #1 level restorations

 

[ronn]

how many cars are worth a #1 restoration? most As are not.................

 

[nkaminar]

Klass Kote https://www.klasskote.com/product/KKUBKIT sells 2-part epoxy and urethane paint. Their off-the-shelf black urethane kit is $270 for a gallon, including reducer. Their black epoxy is $324 per gallon, including reducer. They have primers and will mix custom colors. I have used their paint for my model airplanes and it is good quality.

 

[Oldbluoval]

Define “worth”….few vintage production cars can be restored and market value be the restoration cost.

 

[ronn]

worth-as in being upside down..............


that is true. few merit it these days. Number 2 cars are the future.

 

[ModelA29]

Whether a single stage paint or a two stage paint system is used, they both require maintenance. Maintenance includes regular washing, waxing and polishing. For some reason, people think clear coats don't require this when in fact they do. Single stage paints wouldn't last 10-15 years either without maintenance. House paint doesn't last 10-15 years.

It's not the paint, it's the lack of maintenance that causes the clear coat "sunburn".

I'll say it's mostly the paint. Water based based paints (like house paint) do not last as long as the old paint that used evil oil for their base. Remember how many cars were running around in the 80/90s that had their paint literally blown off the car in large areas.

 

[Jeff/Illinois]

I'll say it's mostly the paint. Water based based paints (like house paint) do not last as long as the old paint that used evil oil for their base. Remember how many cars were running around in the 80/90s that had their paint literally blown off the car in large areas.

Yep!! Chrysler seemed to be one of the first to adopt water based paints it was a disaster! Just like your photos. The paint would peel off like a bad sunburn!

 

[Dodge]

Yes, times have definitely changed. When I painted my 1929 Tudor in 1969. I got primer,
sandpaper, tape, masking paper, The body color paint, the body moulding paint and the thinner for a little over $100. It was Dupont acrylic lacquer.
And it still looks great today.

 

[Fullraceflathead]

Not that the quality was comparable to a high-end paint job but there was a time when earl scheib would paint any car for $29.95!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Marshall V. Daut]

In 1976, I lightly sanded and masked off a fairly rough '67 Corvette convertible and took it to Earl Scheib three blocks away for one of their $29.95 specials. I wanted a silver-blue, so there was no upcharge had I chosen red. I was only expecting a change in color with no delusions of getting a concourse finish. When the car was ready for pick up later that day, I was pleasantly surprised at how nice the paint looked. It helped that I had done the basic prep work and masking, but the final spray job could have still turned out badly. I didn't know squat then about what constitutes a quality paint job. I only knew that the paint covered everything, it shined and it looked nice to my eyes, better than that beaten-to-death old rat deserved. Having learned how to paint and how to judge a quality paint job since then, I've often wondered what that Earl Scheib spray job REALLY looked like. I'm sure I'd now be embarrassed to claim that I had done it. But for a measly $29.95 in 1976, I was a satisfied customer.
Marshall

 

[Dodge]

I'd forgotten about Earl Scheib. The one near us used to run a special every once in a while, they would take what was left of the colors of paint that didn't have enough left for a complete paint job and mix them together. You got some flavor of gray/tan and sometimes a weird blue/green but they did it for $19.95

 

[jeepguy1948]

Paul Shinn has a video showing a wrap being installed on a Model A. I think that that might be a way to go.

 

[Lona]

I'm currently in the process of painting my Model A roadster myself. While I have spraying experience on commercial architectural woodwork projects, I had never painted a car before. I chose to go with Valspar base & clearcoat from NAPA over single stage. My expectations were not high....I knew the lack of prep experience and proper equipment would not result in a professional quality job and I accept that.

At this point, the fenders are done as well as the louvered panels of the hood and the firewall. I am pleasantly surprised with the results so far....better than expected. Certainly much better than the car looked before since it had an early 90's paint job that was just worn out.

I spent just shy of $1500 on all of the paint and materials which surprisingly, were much more expensive than I thought they would be. I bought the car ten years ago for $13k so (unless I really screw up the remaining paint work) I will have a nice looking roadster for about a $15k cost. Not a show car, but nice looking and a bit over-done because of a clearcoat shine it never had before.

I think that as materials and labor rates continue to climb, you will see few to no Model A cars going to restoration shops or top-end paint facilities because of the high cost. That leaves few choices for owners who would just like to freshen up their cars, getting them closer to what they looked like from the factory at a price they can afford.

The market always reacts to fill a vacuum, so there are opportunities for manufacturers to produce less expensive materials and equipment to cater to the small shops and DIY owners who cannot afford or not willing to afford today's costs of finishing their cars.

Glen

 

[nkaminar]

Jeep Guy, See Post #21.

 

[johnr9q@yahoo.com]

I called Sherwin Williams and they have what they call a 9K system that is water base that would be good quality. The primer, reducer, base and clear coat would be maybe $2500. This is California and they have many enviromental restrictions which raise the price and restrict what paint they can sell. I also talked with Eastwood Paints and they said all the products would cost around $2000 but they can't ship to calif. What more do you get with the $50,000 paint jobs people herein are talking about. The prices above don't include labor but does labor cost $48,000?

 

[Kube]

I called Sherwin Williams and they have what they call a 9K system that is water base that would be good quality. The primer, reducer, base and clear coat would be maybe $2500. This is California and they have many enviromental restrictions which raise the price and restrict what paint they can sell. I also talked with Eastwood Paints and they said all the products would cost around $2000 but they can't ship to calif. What more do you get with the $50,000 paint jobs people herein are talking about. The prices above don't include labor but does labor cost $48,000?

I can't speak for others.
Me? You get sheet metal PROPERLY repaired / prepared on BOTH sides. You get a finish that perhaps arguably is second to no other.
You get the assurance that the finish will likely last and appear beautiful for decades.
I have attached a few photos of a '40 Ford convertible I'd done a number of years ago that may allow a better idea of what the investment "gives you".

 

[David in San Antonio]

Marshall, many years ago I was given a Chevy Nova 2-door which had been painted by Earl Scheib. The prep work was slipshod. There was overspray on the tires, rubber gaskets around the windows, the windshield and the door sills. The door jambs, under hood, and inside the trunk stayed their original light blue. The Earl Scheib Diamond Lustre (or whatever it was called) paint had faded from its original red to a mottled orange. The relative who gave it to me hadn’t updated the registration with the new color, and I got pulled over by police who thought the plates may have been stolen. A lot of entertainment for less than $50.