General Question on Paint and Body Work Costs

Jeff/Illinois

Well-known member
Colorado Greg's unfortunate accident with his Coupe made me think of a conversation I just recently had with a friend who owns a body shop.

Bill told me that the prices of paint, reducer, toner, hardener,,, all of it has gone completely insane. He said that every quarter his costs rise 7% on these supplies, regularly. And that starting August 1st (a couple of weeks) a quart of 'toner' will now be $1,000.

Bill's answer to this was... pure greed. He has been in the business since 1973 and said he has never seen anything like this before. It goes beyond simple inflation.

It is making this hobby unobtainable. Anybody out there who is privy to paint supplies have a comment? I'm just curious.. Our Roadster could go for a repaint but at these ignorant prices fugetaboutit.

Bill told me that a customer this summer approached him for an estimate on restoring his '33 Ford Pickup.Bill told him I can't give you a real accurate estimate you don't know what you will run into until you start, but I can guarantee you that a paint job will run you $30,000. The guy almost fell down said 'Nah, never mind I'm not going to restore the truck.'
 
Paint is expensive, but I paid a few hundred dollars for the paint I used to paint my front fenders. The discount online paint stores are selling a complete kit to paint a modern car for less than $600. This is everything needed to paint the car.
 
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not worth restoring anything anymore, as has been discussed. just buy the best you can afford and enjoy it. Projects today are very hard to sell................
 
Colorado Greg's unfortunate accident with his Coupe made me think of a conversation I just recently had with a friend who owns a body shop.

Bill told me that the prices of paint, reducer, toner, hardener,,, all of it has gone completely insane. He said that every quarter his costs rise 7% on these supplies, regularly. And that starting August 1st (a couple of weeks) a quart of 'toner' will now be $1,000.

Bill's answer to this was... pure greed. He has been in the business since 1973 and said he has never seen anything like this before. It goes beyond simple inflation.

It is making this hobby unobtainable. Anybody out there who is privy to paint supplies have a comment? I'm just curious.. Our Roadster could go for a repaint but at these ignorant prices fugetaboutit.

Bill told me that a customer this summer approached him for an estimate on restoring his '33 Ford Pickup. Bill told him I can't give you a real accurate estimate you don't know what you will run into until you start, but I can guarantee you that a paint job will run you $30,000. The guy almost fell down said 'Nah, never mind I'm not going to restore the truck.'

Jeff,
I stopped giving estimates maybe twenty-five years ago. Even super nice appearing cars often hide dirty little (not so little at times) secrets.
Time & materials has been my "go to".
The last restoration I'd completed had over $10k in paint and body materials (only). And I might add that the body was pretty darn nice to start.
I finish both sides of ALL metal to as close to perfection as I am able so that does increase material cost.
As I recall, the paint itself was about $1100 / gallon. That doesn't include clear, activators, primer / surfacer or sandpaper, etc.
For every gallon of "color" I'd spray (about three per car) the cost was approximately double per the cost of the paint itself. So, in effect, $2200 per gallon applied.
Heck, fifty sheets of 3000 grit paper are around $225. Yeah! Sandpaper!
Oh, yes, I do buy at discount rate.

Total body and paint (to my liking) can easily run $50k when labor is factored in.

One more note, yes, there are available many "cheaper" paints. I strongly believe in doing the best body / prep I am capable of and would not even entertain using anything but the best chemicals over that. Can you imagine the paint dulling, flaking, etc. and having to strip it?
I'd witnessed, sadly too many times, cars painted with "cheap" paint. Might be one factor why my restorations still appear "as new" some twenty years and even longer in age.
 
Kube makes some very valid points above, and everyone would do well to re-read and comprehend what he is saying.

Now, I will add some thoughts and opinions to this topic.

To begin with, ...price increases are not due to "greed" IMO. It is because we have allowed Politics to supersede Common Sense. One of the best paint products for the collector vehicle market (-both for the professional painter and the hobbyist restorer alike) was PPG's DCC Concept 2k Urethane. It was a profitable line for PPG since the mid-1980s that has filled a need for decades, ...until an overreaching political party pushed the EPA to over-regulate it because it had trace amounts of heavy metals in the ingredients. As a result, the taxation thru fines and surcharges exceeded what the general public would pay, so an (inferior!!) alternative was developed. FWIW, had the present EPA leadership been involved just a few years ago, because of their current deregulation on so many over-reaches, it has been said that Concept would still be in production today if the laws had been relaxed sooner. A PPG engineer told me personally that corporate had continued to cut their profit margins to be able to continue selling the Concept line until it was no longer profitable at a pricepoint that the consumer would pay.

Secondly related to that, the cost of Labor for the companies that cater to this hobby has increased WAY faster than the hobby has kept up with. The Labor inflationary period within this Country is the major cause of price increases. Gone are the days of a good $12.00-$15.00 an hour employee. To hire a respectable employee or tradesman that can pass a drug test, -one that has a good work ethic, ...and someone that is a responsible citizen (-a good family man that pays his bills, and has good overall moral character) is very hard to find for less than $50k a year. Add someone who excess in their craft, and that annual wage easily doubles. Employers have learned that to invest time & resources into training employee is expensive, so retaining that employee requires paying the proper wage. That really isn't greed, but smart business practices. So Bill is correct that he has never seen anything like this, ....however look at how much in this world has changed since 1973.


Now I want to address a couple other things. This hobby's mindset had changed significantly since I became exposed to it as a kid 60+ years ago. Back then, 90%-95% of all of the restoration work on collector vehicles were done by hobbyists who did all, -or most of the work themselves. Back then, the hobbyist's talent levels was strong enough where components were actually restored instead of being replaced. In the Model-A hobby, club members made fun of someone who used parts from Specialized Auto, Ricks Model-A, JC Whitney, et/al as it showed lack of effort or ability to do the job correctly. Fast forward to today where 90%-95% of Model-A hobbyists cannot, -or do not restore themselves, and struggle with anything more than the basics when it comes to diagnosing or repairing their vehicle. This is limiting the availability of quality Model-As to fill the need. Instead, the market is saturated with poorly restored or severely worn-out Model-As on the market, and savvy Buyers now are not interested in purchasing a PoS Model-A that will be plagued with breakdowns and constant repairs needed. Ironically, I have stated before that my worst customer is a MARC or MAFCA member. That is because of all collector vehicles that I know about, the average Model-A owner tends to be the cheapest hobbyist of all marques. It used to be the vintage Volkswagen hobbyists was the cheapest followed by the Model-T owner. Even those people have upped their game to be responsible stewards of their vehicles. Someone who posted a comment above told me something about a decade or two ago that I have never forgotten. He said "There are too many people collecting Model-As that need to be collecting baseball cards or something that they can actually afford." His comment has so much merit simply because hobbyists now will not do proper maintenance nor will they repair their unsafe or unreliable vehicle. Instead, they hide behind excuses such as 'Mine's a Driver!' or 'I want the Patina look because they are only original once!'

So do I think the hobby is dying? Not really. I know of about a dozen professional Model-A specific restoration shops out there, and to my knowledge every one of them is extremely busy with a long waiting list. These are shops that are charging more than $50,000 to restore a Model-A, ...and I repeat, they are busy. So if that is the case, where is the problem? Is it the Shops are charging too much for a restoration, -or is it that many of the Consumers have not kept up with the times?
 
This has been going on since the mid 1980s, at least... I was in that profession for a while, the Feds have some to do with it, many of the brand names helped drive it higher continuously, but the guys doing the work didn't see such an increase.


Between that and the health concerns, is why I got out of it. I do miss it though. I enjoyed autobody repair, especially painting.
 
Kube makes some very valid points above, and everyone would do well to re-read and comprehend what he is saying.

Now, I will add some thoughts and opinions to this topic.

To begin with, ...price increases are not due to "greed" IMO. It is because we have allowed Politics to supersede Common Sense. One of the best paint products for the collector vehicle market (-both for the professional painter and the hobbyist restorer alike) was PPG's DCC Concept 2k Urethane. It was a profitable line for PPG since the mid-1980s that has filled a need for decades, ...until an overreaching political party pushed the EPA to over-regulate it because it had trace amounts of heavy metals in the ingredients. As a result, the taxation thru fines and surcharges exceeded what the general public would pay, so an (inferior!!) alternative was developed. FWIW, had the present EPA leadership been involved just a few years ago, because of their current deregulation on so many over-reaches, it has been said that Concept would still be in production today if the laws had been relaxed sooner. A PPG engineer told me personally that corporate had continued to cut their profit margins to be able to continue selling the Concept line until it was no longer profitable at a pricepoint that the consumer would pay.

Secondly related to that, the cost of Labor for the companies that cater to this hobby has increased WAY faster than the hobby has kept up with. The Labor inflationary period within this Country is the major cause of price increases. Gone are the days of a good $12.00-$15.00 an hour employee. To hire a respectable employee or tradesman that can pass a drug test, -one that has a good work ethic, ...and someone that is a responsible citizen (-a good family man that pays his bills, and has good overall moral character) is very hard to find for less than $50k a year. Add someone who excess in their craft, and that annual wage easily doubles. Employers have learned that to invest time & resources into training employee is expensive, so retaining that employee requires paying the proper wage. That really isn't greed, but smart business practices. So Bill is correct that he has never seen anything like this, ....however look at how much in this world has changed since 1973.


Now I want to address a couple other things. This hobby's mindset had changed significantly since I became exposed to it as a kid 60+ years ago. Back then, 90%-95% of all of the restoration work on collector vehicles were done by hobbyists who did all, -or most of the work themselves. Back then, the hobbyist's talent levels was strong enough where components were actually restored instead of being replaced. In the Model-A hobby, club members made fun of someone who used parts from Specialized Auto, Ricks Model-A, JC Whitney, et/al as it showed lack of effort or ability to do the job correctly. Fast forward to today where 90%-95% of Model-A hobbyists cannot, -or do not restore themselves, and struggle with anything more than the basics when it comes to diagnosing or repairing their vehicle. This is limiting the availability of quality Model-As to fill the need. Instead, the market is saturated with poorly restored or severely worn-out Model-As on the market, and savvy Buyers now are not interested in purchasing a PoS Model-A that will be plagued with breakdowns and constant repairs needed. Ironically, I have stated before that my worst customer is a MARC or MAFCA member. That is because of all collector vehicles that I know about, the average Model-A owner tends to be the cheapest hobbyist of all marques. It used to be the vintage Volkswagen hobbyists was the cheapest followed by the Model-T owner. Even those people have upped their game to be responsible stewards of their vehicles. Someone who posted a comment above told me something about a decade or two ago that I have never forgotten. He said "There are too many people collecting Model-As that need to be collecting baseball cards or something that they can actually afford." His comment has so much merit simply because hobbyists now will not do proper maintenance nor will they repair their unsafe or unreliable vehicle. Instead, they hide behind excuses such as 'Mine's a Driver!' or 'I want the Patina look because they are only original once!'

So do I think the hobby is dying? Not really. I know of about a dozen professional Model-A specific restoration shops out there, and to my knowledge every one of them is extremely busy with a long waiting list. These are shops that are charging more than $50,000 to restore a Model-A, ...and I repeat, they are busy. So if that is the case, where is the problem? Is it the Shops are charging too much for a restoration, -or is it that many of the Consumers have not kept up with the times?
exactly, I am one that is a cheap scape but I have learned so much on how to do body work and straighten out fenders and other components and I can tell you I really appreciate someone who has dedicated there life and time restoring old cars, its not easy nor is it something that can be done over night. I also realized with my tudor as I called to purchase new fenders for it that everyone I had called does not have any nor a time when I can purchase new so as a retired elevator man I learned a new trade at 66 years old only because I love the car and want it to look good as I like to drive my car and not let it sit.
 
material costs are very high but peoples expectations of what is a paint job is also high.
to take your car to a professional shop you want that car, when it is finished, to stand with the other freshly painted cars and look nice. to do that on a car that is put together of all separated bolt on parts it usually meens quite a bit of disassembly and reassembly, it can not be painted as an assembled unit and have it look like a quality job.
even if the car looks good before it goes into the shop no one knows what is underneath or if the new refinishing products will work overtop. so most times that car will have to be stripped. these situations go on and on . if the shop does not do it rite you will be back on his doorstep. also the shop has to have is name on that paint job and his reputation may be riding on it. the high cost of a paint job will be from lots of factors not just material costs.

here is the plus.
one thing about modern paint materials all the way from the stuff you apply to the bare metal all the way up to the nice shiny finish you see once the car is completed, is, the modern refinishing materials and paints are ten thousand times better than they were in the years leading up to the 1990s.

if you were to spend your money on a quality paint job now a days it will most likely last for ever. not like the old enamels or lacquer paints that would fade, crack, sink, peel. as well you most likely will not see masking lines, overspray in door jams, runs, dry spots that sort of stuff.

i was in the trade i know what is required to do those paint jobs. can i afford to do one? not a chance. i do stuff to make things "good enough"
 
The tinted paints are opaque to UV and therefore last a long time. The clear coat absorbs UV which breaks the molecular bonds and causes the clear coat to peel in a short time. Good news for car manufacturers who want to sell you new cars.
 
Unfortunately with the modern paints I see mini clear coats Peeling within 10-15 years to me that's not acceptable!!!

Whether a single stage paint or a two stage paint system is used, they both require maintenance. Maintenance includes regular washing, waxing and polishing. For some reason, people think clear coats don't require this when in fact they do. Single stage paints wouldn't last 10-15 years either without maintenance. House paint doesn't last 10-15 years.

It's not the paint, it's the lack of maintenance that causes the clear coat "sunburn".
 
I talked to a pro body guy at Carlisle that does outstanding work and he doesn't sand and buff clear coat for thirty days. He tells the customer to bring it back for the buffing. He said that if you cut and buff immediately after painting you seal the unevaporated thinners in the paint with the wax and leads to early peeling. Sounded reasonable to me.
 
Thanks Brent: Things well said. I'm in Canada and just the materials to do the body and paint on a Model A is between $5000.00 and $7000.00. Then add 1200 hours to that at $75.00/hr.
I stopped into a former students shop and they where repainting a 2025 Chevy Pickup that had be vandilized (scratched every panel but the roof). So just removal of parts, prep, paint and polish as required. The estimate on it with materials and parts was at $28,000. and he was sure there whould be additionals when he was finished.
And that didn't include bodywork because it was a pretty new truck. JP
 
Most people today are really shocked when you tell them "I can't buy the materials for what you think the paint job should cost"
 
Yes, Brent and I are BIG PPG Concept paint fans, the high cost notwithstanding. What more could a painter expect from a paint than good coverage, smooth paint patterns, easy to color sand and buff out, and long-lasting finish??? The 1928 Phaeton I painted in 1999 with Concept still looks great, even after sitting in the Phoenix sun and Iowa winters for a couple years. Maybe a little thin on the hood top, but otherwise the shine and depth on the rest of the car are as deep as when I laid the paint down way back then. I griped about how expensive Concept was ($800 per unmixed gallon for black), but I was never disappointed by the final result. Like Brent, I bemoan that PPG discontinued this line of superior paint, no matter what the environmental or supply chain issues were that caused its demise. I have yet to find a comparable substitute. The more things change, the worse life is afterwards. "I'm all for change, as long as everything stays the same afterwards". The only exception to this for me would be if PPG changed BACK to Concept. Unless you experienced PPG 's Concept line of paints, you'll never know what an outstanding paint you missed out on.
Marshall
 
What about the plastic film? Paul Shinn has a video showing a Model A being covered with plastic film. Sort of like heat shrink covering. The car would still need to be prepped to the point where it could be painted. But plastic film instead of paint.
 
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