German guy
Senior Member
Can anyone help me out with decoding the serial number on my 30 Tudor? Stamped on the side of the engine is A4251056. Delivery date on the original paperwork is Saturday, 28 June 1930, Berlin.
serial number question
- Thread starter German guy
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CT Jack
Well-known member
Guten Morgen, mein Freund Werner,
I believe my 31 Tudor was made somewhere in northern Europe either Germany or Belgium. A lubrication plate from the Fred Rasmussen Co. in Odense, Denmark is attached to the middle floorboard. The engine serial on the plate matches the engine in my car. The number is 4452596 which I believe indicates the engine was made in Manchester, England. If possible can you tell me where my car was made?
Beste Gruesse aus Jack
I believe my 31 Tudor was made somewhere in northern Europe either Germany or Belgium. A lubrication plate from the Fred Rasmussen Co. in Odense, Denmark is attached to the middle floorboard. The engine serial on the plate matches the engine in my car. The number is 4452596 which I believe indicates the engine was made in Manchester, England. If possible can you tell me where my car was made?
Beste Gruesse aus Jack
Bob Bidonde
Well-known member
I thought that all 201CuIn Model "A" engines were made in The Rouge or in Canada. Is this so?
Look at Vince's site, he shows engine # A4250540 Manchester assigned number on big bore engine.
https://www.fordgarage.com/pages/ABenginenumbers.htm
Werner
Well-known member
CT Jack,
to answer your questions 're all quite complicated.
For example, there were some factories in Great Britain, Belgium, Germany that built Model As. But for the most parts, these were just kits that arrived in boxes from the USA by ship and were simply bolted together.
For the EU market, there were special engines with only 2 liters of displacement, instead of the standard 3.3 liters and less than 30 hp, because vehicle tax was consistently based on engine displacement. These smaller engines were also manufactured in the USA and stamped with "AF" before the serial number.
Independent engine production in europe according to US specifications only became possible later, after the Model A, at Ford in Cologne if they had now built own cast iron engine and transmission block foundry.
Note: There is only 1 known Model A from German production that is still running.
I think Fa. Fred Rasmussen in DK was an importeuer and Ford-authorized dealer.
to answer your questions 're all quite complicated.
For example, there were some factories in Great Britain, Belgium, Germany that built Model As. But for the most parts, these were just kits that arrived in boxes from the USA by ship and were simply bolted together.
For the EU market, there were special engines with only 2 liters of displacement, instead of the standard 3.3 liters and less than 30 hp, because vehicle tax was consistently based on engine displacement. These smaller engines were also manufactured in the USA and stamped with "AF" before the serial number.
Independent engine production in europe according to US specifications only became possible later, after the Model A, at Ford in Cologne if they had now built own cast iron engine and transmission block foundry.
Note: There is only 1 known Model A from German production that is still running.
I think Fa. Fred Rasmussen in DK was an importeuer and Ford-authorized dealer.
Brad in Germany
Well-known member
....well, as a point of order, actually all of the small bore European Ford AF engines were cast in the UK and then shipped to the various Ford assembly plants or Ford factories in Europe (France, Germany, Denmark, etc).
.....and besides England, Germany also cast their own Ford Model A engine blocks (and heads, etc) in 1931. However, they were not cast at the Ford factory in Köln, but were cast by Gebrüder Sulzer in Ludwigshafen am Rhein, Germany (some post-Model A production German cast Ford engines even had the "GS" cast on the side of the block by the water inlet) and then shipped up the Rhein to be machined at the Ford factory in Köln. Here is a photo of some of those freshly cast, raw, Ford Model A engine blocks after delivery to the Ford factory in Köln (from a 1931 issue of Ford Im Bild:
...and here is a photo of some raw Ford Model A engine heads likewise just delivered to the Ford factory in Köln, Germany from the Gebrüder Sulzer Gießerei, waiting to be machined (from the 20 June 1931 issue of AAZ magazine):
...and there actually more than just one German-cast, Ford Model A engine still in existence (including two in my garage).
Your engine number was one of the block of engine numbers that were assigned to Ford Manchester, England (numbers 4250001 - 4260000) in late 1930. As to exactly when those engine numbers were stamped on an engine in England I believe is still unknown? Some of those England stamped engines where then shipped to various Ford assembly plants in Europe (like Berlin, Germany, etc)......but which Ford assembly plants in Europe received specifically which engines from England I believe is also still unknown?
Ford Germany records indicate that in 1930 there were a total of 9906 (2133 in early 1931) passenger cars and 3309 (2000 in early 1931) commercial vehicles and running chassis assembled in Berlin, Germany. From 2 June 1931 there were 972 passenger cars and 916 commercial vehicles built in the Ford factory in Köln, Germany.
....my $0.02,
Brad in Maryland
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CT Jack
Well-known member
I would appreciate knowing where my car originally came from. I have been assuming it came from Denmark. The photo shows the brass plaque that was attached to the middle floorboard in my 31 Tudor. The number in the middle matches my engine serial number. The Fred Rasmussen Co was a Danish company that serviced Model A's in Odense, Denmark. The number stamped on the left of the plaque is 1075 and is identified as Voget. I do not know what this refers to, any help would be appreciated.
CT Jack
Well-known member
Reposting - forgot photo
I would appreciate knowing where my car originally came from. I have been assuming it came from Denmark. The photo shows the brass plaque that was attached to the middle floorboard in my 31 Tudor. The number in the middle matches my engine serial number. The Fred Rasmussen Co was a Danish company that serviced Model A's in Odense, Denmark. The number stamped on the left of the plaque is 1075 and is identified as Voget. I do not know what this refers to, any help would be appreciated.
![](http://"C:\Users\Jack Gasper\OneDrive\Pictures\IMG_1140.jpeg")
I would appreciate knowing where my car originally came from. I have been assuming it came from Denmark. The photo shows the brass plaque that was attached to the middle floorboard in my 31 Tudor. The number in the middle matches my engine serial number. The Fred Rasmussen Co was a Danish company that serviced Model A's in Odense, Denmark. The number stamped on the left of the plaque is 1075 and is identified as Voget. I do not know what this refers to, any help would be appreciated.
Brad in Germany
Well-known member
Here is a similar Danish brass data plate as the one you refer to on your car. Such data plates were required, at the time, on all Danish cars and were often "sponsored" by a lubrication / oil company....like this one which was obviously sponsored by the Vacuum Oil Company - Mobiloil Gargoyle:
"Vœgt" referes to the vehicle weight in kilograms.
"No" refers to the serial number of the car which was also the serial number of the engine.
"HK." refers to the horse power (HK=Hestekræfter or Horse Power).
Back in the day, Fred Rasmussen & Co had Ford dealerships in the cities of Odense and Ringe in Denmark.
....my $0.02,
Brad in Maryland
.
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Werner
Well-known member
Remark to #8:
It should be noted that publications from that time weren't always truthful. Unfortunately, even from the mid-1920s onward, there were clear xenophobic trends.
Foreign companies like Ford, Opel, Citroen, Renault, etc. therefore used all sorts of tricks to present their products as German-made. Thus, the actual manufacturing of Ford parts predominantly took place in the United States, and they were stamped like German markings. At least on the paperwork.
But I don't want to write any more about that, as it's a political matter. -
Brad,
am I understanding this correctly? You actually have two drivable Model A cars, manufactured in Germany, in your garage?
It should be noted that publications from that time weren't always truthful. Unfortunately, even from the mid-1920s onward, there were clear xenophobic trends.
Foreign companies like Ford, Opel, Citroen, Renault, etc. therefore used all sorts of tricks to present their products as German-made. Thus, the actual manufacturing of Ford parts predominantly took place in the United States, and they were stamped like German markings. At least on the paperwork.
But I don't want to write any more about that, as it's a political matter. -
Brad,
am I understanding this correctly? You actually have two drivable Model A cars, manufactured in Germany, in your garage?
CT Jack
Well-known member
Thank you all for the history lesson especially Brad. I have been having a problem with uploading the image of the plaque that is in my 31 Tudor. My plaque is identical to the one shown and indicates the weight of 1075kg and the engine serial number. The horsepower box is blank. My engine serial # is A4452596 which according to the production records came from Manchester, UK. Should I assume my car was assembled either in Germany or Denmark? My car also has 2 spare tires, one in the right fender well and one mounted in the rear. Maybe there was a scarcity of tires then so the owner added the rear mount.
rotorwrench
Well-known member
The New Dagenham factory came on line in 1931. Prior to that, most foundry production was in Ireland. The Colgne Ford plant also came on line in 1931. The Rouge plant gave a block of numbers starting with 4250000 and was a 10,000 alotment for Europe in 1931. They would transfer blocks of numbers as needed depending on projected production. The UK taxing situation placed a limit on horse power that was substantial. The small displacement engines were a good part of this serial number group that recieved the AF designation. The full sized displacement engines were still just A designation types. Ford controlled all model A numders with the exception of Ford Motor Company of Canada which was a separate entity and had it's own unique numbering system. GAZ in the USSR continued to manufacture model AA type trucks for many years but they changed certain characteristics that made them unique to GAZ.
Ford had assembly plants all over the world that received knock down kits for final assembly which was the practice prior to the building of plants that had foundry capabilities. Matford eventually had foundry capability in France but it came after the model A era. Germany and the Soviet Union took state control of plants in their respective countries prior to the war so there were few of those vehicles that ventured out of their spheres of influence. Denmark had a branch plant in the model A era and it supplied other European countries as did Manchester and then Dagenham. The Rouge also supplied knock downs to countries in the far east and Africa with many set up with right hand drive.
Ford had assembly plants all over the world that received knock down kits for final assembly which was the practice prior to the building of plants that had foundry capabilities. Matford eventually had foundry capability in France but it came after the model A era. Germany and the Soviet Union took state control of plants in their respective countries prior to the war so there were few of those vehicles that ventured out of their spheres of influence. Denmark had a branch plant in the model A era and it supplied other European countries as did Manchester and then Dagenham. The Rouge also supplied knock downs to countries in the far east and Africa with many set up with right hand drive.
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ModelA29
Well-known member
Tire quality was not there in the 30s. Rough gravel roads were hard on them. If you traveled or lived out in a rural area there may not be easy access to replacements.