Help in Identifying Model A? Rear Axle & Condition
- Thread starter Ziggster
- Start date
nkaminar
Well-known member
At a minimum the shafts should be replaced. There may be other damage inside. Here is a good site for overhauling the rear end: https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-con...rential-Rear-End-Restoration-Revised-2014.pdf
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Your pictures are not clear enough for me to determine how early, however I will say that axle shaft you have pictured really should not be used.
If you look in the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards there is a pretty good discussion of the changes made to the rear end during production. That should help you narrow down when that rear end was manufactured.
I’d agree, I would not use the axles with the taper shown. If the taper is that chowdered I’d want to pull the assembly apart and inspect bearings, gears, seals etc. to see if the internals are equally worn. There are a number of wearing surfaces internally that you should inspect to determine what pieces are salvageable. Les Andrew’s Red Book has a pretty good section on the rear end. The Tom Endy article that NK references is excellent as well. Also check to see whether there is good steel around the spring shackles, most axle housings I’ve seen are worn through the bushing and into the spring perch. This might not be apparent with the spring installed. Rebuilding a rear end is not horribly difficult, but it can be a bit tedious to set the clearances properly.
I’d agree, I would not use the axles with the taper shown. If the taper is that chowdered I’d want to pull the assembly apart and inspect bearings, gears, seals etc. to see if the internals are equally worn. There are a number of wearing surfaces internally that you should inspect to determine what pieces are salvageable. Les Andrew’s Red Book has a pretty good section on the rear end. The Tom Endy article that NK references is excellent as well. Also check to see whether there is good steel around the spring shackles, most axle housings I’ve seen are worn through the bushing and into the spring perch. This might not be apparent with the spring installed. Rebuilding a rear end is not horribly difficult, but it can be a bit tedious to set the clearances properly.
rotorwrench
Well-known member
The real early ones have a different set up for the drive shaft and pinion gear. It had threads cut into the shaft for the bearing adjustment where the later set up has threads cut into the pinion gear stub. They may also be set up with the early drums for AR type wheels only. The early emergency brake set up is integral with the service brakes where the later types had a separate braking system for E brakes.
A lot of changes were made in 1928 so by the end of 1928 a lot of things were already updated and basically the same as the later rear axle assemblies. The axle in question appears to have the later brakes. The torque tube would have to come off to see the drive shaft rear end section. New axle shafts are available but at near 800 bucks US each, they are way out there. Most hard parts are available with exception to those housings. If all the housings and torque tube are still serviceable then they are well worth saving. The price of shipping on rear axle assemblies is way out there on less than a truckload freight unless you travel to purchase one yourself. Axle shafts are out there in the used market and they are not so hard to ship.
A lot of changes were made in 1928 so by the end of 1928 a lot of things were already updated and basically the same as the later rear axle assemblies. The axle in question appears to have the later brakes. The torque tube would have to come off to see the drive shaft rear end section. New axle shafts are available but at near 800 bucks US each, they are way out there. Most hard parts are available with exception to those housings. If all the housings and torque tube are still serviceable then they are well worth saving. The price of shipping on rear axle assemblies is way out there on less than a truckload freight unless you travel to purchase one yourself. Axle shafts are out there in the used market and they are not so hard to ship.
Thanks for all the replies. At the time of purchase, the seller had a bunch of other stuff that I could have taken for free including a cowel, but this was about as much as I could pack into my small 4’ x 8’ utility trailer. I think all that stuff including the steering column cost me around CAN$250. lol!
I’m not restoring a vehicle, so not important to me about some other details as I just want to know year for identifying for parts interface. I can’t believe how expensive the new shafts are, so that won’t be an option. There is a pair of front and rear axles along with an engine and trans for sale locally out of a 31 fur CAN$500, but I really don’t want it need the other parts and they want to sell it as a lot.
The torque tube is off, so I’ll get some more pics just to help perhaps nail down the year.
I’m not restoring a vehicle, so not important to me about some other details as I just want to know year for identifying for parts interface. I can’t believe how expensive the new shafts are, so that won’t be an option. There is a pair of front and rear axles along with an engine and trans for sale locally out of a 31 fur CAN$500, but I really don’t want it need the other parts and they want to sell it as a lot.
The torque tube is off, so I’ll get some more pics just to help perhaps nail down the year.
Haha!
Long story about those beams. I have several more that I purchased from the seller who saved them from wooden crating that was used to pack the sides of school buses built by Blue Bird near Brantford Ont, Canada. Back then in 2018, there were 15-20 yrs old IIRC, and were kept dry all that time. IIRC, they were white oak. I’ll be using them in my speedster build to mimic the wooden chassis rails of Richard Scaldwell’s GN JAP creation which I’m mimicking somewhat, but using a C69A flathead.
Suggestion about purchasing rear ends:
Drain the oil before buying this item. You might find the bottom half of banjo full of water. (oil floats on top of water.) Ring and pinion and parts inside will be rusted depending on how long water has been in there.
People remove rear ends and stack them against a wall WITH drive shaft pointing "sky ward" to save space. RAIN AND SNOW GOES down driveshaft.
60 years ago when I worked at Golden Restoration we always put a coffee can over end of drive shaft. If you see coffee can on it it does not mean there is no water inside.
Whether or not there is rust depends on how long ago they put the can on driveshaft!
Drain the oil before buying this item. You might find the bottom half of banjo full of water. (oil floats on top of water.) Ring and pinion and parts inside will be rusted depending on how long water has been in there.
People remove rear ends and stack them against a wall WITH drive shaft pointing "sky ward" to save space. RAIN AND SNOW GOES down driveshaft.
60 years ago when I worked at Golden Restoration we always put a coffee can over end of drive shaft. If you see coffee can on it it does not mean there is no water inside.
Whether or not there is rust depends on how long ago they put the can on driveshaft!
It just occurred to me, that back when I purchased the axle, I came across some sort of shim used for damaged taper surfaces. I just found the link to them (attached below). Would these work?
https://www.blueovalclassics.ca/dri...e-shaft/axle-tapered-shim-rear-ford-passenger
https://www.blueovalclassics.ca/dri...e-shaft/axle-tapered-shim-rear-ford-passenger
Likely won't work as badly damaged as those tapers are. They are more for moving the drum out from the backing plate. You really should do more of an evaluation of condition before you go accepting that rusty old thing, as others have said if there is water in the banjo you may just have some yard art there.
Y-Blockhead
Well-known member
Don't bandaid it. You will end up trashing your new hubs. I doubt you can use your existing hubs by the looks of your axles.
I’m curious as to what the purpose of the taper on the shaft is? I put the hub that was originally on the axle, and I see that there is a large bearing that rides on the machined surface of the axle tube. It also looks as there is an insert in the hub tgst matches the taper/keyway.
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nkaminar
Well-known member
The taper is what holds the hub in place. It prevents the hub from turning on the shaft. There is a key there but it is a backup in case the nut becomes loose. The key should be a tight fit in the shaft and hub. The nut should be very tight. I use about 100 foot-pounds but others use as low as 50 foot-pounds. A taper like that is an old device to lock a hub on a shaft or to lock the tail stock on a lathe in place. The taper in the hub and the taper on the shaft should be assembled dry.
Ok. Makes sense, but how could the taper get so buggered up? I’m guessing at one point or another the wheel must have come off while the car was going down the road. Also, I understand that the basic rear axle design (banjo style) was used from 1928 to 1948. Is this correct, and if so, I assume all these years used tapered axle shafts? I have another question; we’re all the hub/drum assemblies the same design using the large “cage” style roller bearing that rode on the machined outer axle housing boss/hub?
rotorwrench
Well-known member
There are two different designs of rear wheel bearing in the later axles. In 1941, Ford came out with the final design of rear axle for the 1942 and post war models so not much interchanges. The model A had a distinctive rear axle that is different than the later V8 axle that came out in 1932. The B model axle is similar but has enough difference to keep them in the model B category. The model 18 V8 axle worked for both the model 18 and the later B cars through 1934. Changes in ring and pinion vary in banjo production depending on year of manufacture.
Model A axle shafts only fit model As. In the later axles, the spider gear tooth count and axle shaft overall length tells what they fit. The 1942 on axles are longer that the earlier ones.
A sheared key can cause damage such as what the ones in the previous photos show. Corrosion and/or a loose hub can do a lot of damage as well. Generally, a wheel departing the axle is caused by a broken axle. Some folks use safety retainers on the brake backing plate for the later cars or model As with hydraulic brakes.
Model A axle shafts only fit model As. In the later axles, the spider gear tooth count and axle shaft overall length tells what they fit. The 1942 on axles are longer that the earlier ones.
A sheared key can cause damage such as what the ones in the previous photos show. Corrosion and/or a loose hub can do a lot of damage as well. Generally, a wheel departing the axle is caused by a broken axle. Some folks use safety retainers on the brake backing plate for the later cars or model As with hydraulic brakes.
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Thanks for the additional info. Never heard of the nomenclature you mentioned, so some more reading. I understand that were differences throughout the years as far as spring perch mounts/design including radius rod attachment points. I also understand there changes on overall width with width increasing as the years progress. There were changes to driveshaft and pinion design as I understand it as well. Are there pics anywhere that show the axles year by year?
An additional pic of the perch mounts on the axle I have. I’m asking all these questions as I ultimately looking into adding hydraulic brakes as well as wide five drums/hubs.
An additional pic of the perch mounts on the axle I have. I’m asking all these questions as I ultimately looking into adding hydraulic brakes as well as wide five drums/hubs.
