Ring and pinion set up

Lawrie

Lawrie

Well-known member
I have fitted a new reproduction gear set into my 34 coupe.
It sure is not as easy to set up when using original ford gears,
This is my contact patch, with .006 backlash.
my info tells me to get the drive side patch more in the centre of the length of the tooth I need to increase the backlash, my ford specks say max .008 .
Any experts have an idea if the contact I have is OK or not.

thanks Lawrie
 

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Lawrie said:
I have fitted a new reproduction gear set into my 34 coupe.
It sure is not as easy to set up when using original ford gears,
This is my contact patch, with .006 backlash.
my info tells me to get the drive side patch more in the centre of the length of the tooth I need to increase the backlash, my ford specks say max .008 .
Any experts have an idea if the contact I have is OK or not.

thanks Lawrie
Click to expand...
576529


576530
 
I must have setup over 100 rearends at my job at the phone company over 30-years. Those guys would destroy rearends. I've never rebuilt an Early Ford rearend. As far as I know Early Fords did not use a pinion shim so all you have is the paper axle gaskets to deal with. You might not be able to create a picture-perfect centered pattern, especially with reproduction gears. About all you can do is make sure the pattern does not go all the way to the tooths edges. You try to center it the best you can, but it won't always let you.

I used to get the tubes of the yellow gear marking compound from the Chevy dealer. That was the only place I ever found it for sale. One tube will last you for years. That was 20-years ago.

Some of the rearends like the Dana's use steel shims under the pressed-on bearings. I used to take those rearends a part several times changing the shims until I came up with a good pattern and backlash. A lot of times pressing on and off the bearings would damage them. I honed out a set of the bearings so they would just slip on. Then I'd change the shims until l I found the thicknesses I needed. Then I replaced the honed out temporary bearings and pressed on the new bearings.

This is not an Early Ford rearend, but the setup pattern is the same. He explains that the perfect pattern is not always achievable. I've had a stroke so I'm sitting here trying to figure out adding clearances to what will do what? That was 20-years ago and then I had the stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Dt5hJhbjg&t=294s
 
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Flathead, I too have a set of polished bearings, that will slip onto the pinion and into the housing, then easy to pull them off to adjust the pinion depth, mainly.
This arvo, I used these bearings to adjust the pattern, I got it a lot nicer, and will post a pick tomorrow,I could get a nicer centred pattern and a lot nicer backlash .006. using an additional .005 shim under the pinion, making a total of .067 inch shim
funny thing, this is the third repo gears I have fitted in the last 29 hrs and all needed a shim under the pinion.
I have fitted original ford gears, removerd from a rusty old wreck in the bush, cleaned them, fitted new bearings and they are spot on, only needed the backlash set ,they run as quite as.
Thanks for the info.
Lawrie
 
The ford ring and pinions are a matched set. Appears you have the Spec for the backlash. Increasing the thickness of the LH housing gasket increases backlash. I would go with the .006 since it will slightly increase with use.
 
Lawrie I have found the new gear sets are a bit of a problem at times getting a decent contact pattern. Since you presently have .006 I would experiment with moving the housing gaskets to see if your able to get the pattern more centered. Do you have a selection different thickness of housing gaskets to work with? At times I have eliminated the right side gasket entirely to get a decent pattern.
Ronnieroadster
 
Lawrie said:
Flathead, I too have a set of polished bearings, that will slip onto the pinion and into the housing, then easy to pull them off to adjust the pinion depth, mainly.
This arvo, I used these bearings to adjust the pattern, I got it a lot nicer, and will post a pick tomorrow,I could get a nicer centred pattern and a lot nicer backlash .006. using an additional .005 shim under the pinion, making a total of .067 inch shim
funny thing, this is the third repo gears I have fitted in the last 29 hrs and all needed a shim under the pinion.
I have fitted original ford gears, removerd from a rusty old wreck in the bush, cleaned them, fitted new bearings and they are spot on, only needed the backlash set ,they run as quite as.
Thanks for the info.
Lawrie
Click to expand...

Just trying to understand this. If you put a steel shim on top of the pinion, you will get more insertion which in this case is what you're after Lawrie.

576551
 
The only adjustment on the banjo pinion is the torque on the nuts for the double tapered bearings which is very close to 30 inch pounds. I have the KRW tool that measures this torque and then checked it with an inch lb torque wrench. As mentioned, backlash is adjusted with the gasket thickness on the axle housing.
These rear ends are very different from the more modern hypoid gear setup where the pinion is much lower than the center of the ring gear and the teeth have a pronounced "wiping" action and the setup is much more critical.
 
deuce_roadster said:
The only adjustment on the banjo pinion is the torque on the nuts for the double tapered bearings which is very close to 30 inch pounds. I have the KRW tool that measures this torque and then checked it with an inch lb torque wrench. As mentioned, backlash is adjusted with the gasket thickness on the axle housing.
These rear ends are very different from the more modern hypoid gear setup where the pinion is much lower than the center of the ring gear and the teeth have a pronounced "wiping" action and the setup is much more critical.
Click to expand...

Not being an expert myself, nevertheless waiting for my clue to jump in, when I built my banjo, I pulled the carcass out of boiling oil, dropped in the frozen bearings and slammed it home with a jury rigged collection of pipe fittings and steel bars. After temperatures stabilized and locknuts went on, the outer shaft locked in a bench vise pointed down, I spun the banjo as fast as I could with both hands. Adjustments were made, spun it once more, this time making just shy of one full revolution. Yes, I had tried the KRW gauge first, with no discernible results, the needle jumping back and forth wildly. As for the backlash, I used two sets of gaskets, one of which was a trial set, split to enable quick change for fit, to be replaced with the intact set for permanent installation. Assembly completed with thread sealant on the bolts, after checking one last time for burrs on the gasket surfaces. Now today I might be considered an old timer, but I got those hints from the genuine old timers from back in the day. That set of 3.78’s served me well through the years, though I did have to replace an axle once from my own dumb mistake of not eyeballing for cracks at the keyway.
 
deuce_roadster said:
The only adjustment on the banjo pinion is the torque on the nuts for the double tapered bearings which is very close to 30 inch pounds. I have the KRW tool that measures this torque and then checked it with an inch lb torque wrench. As mentioned, backlash is adjusted with the gasket thickness on the axle housing.
These rear ends are very different from the more modern hypoid gear setup where the pinion is much lower than the center of the ring gear and the teeth have a pronounced "wiping" action and the setup is much more critical.
Click to expand...

Thanks Deuce
 
I am not using original ford gears, the ones I am using are reproduction ones.
they look nice and come from Italy.
Finally I got back to the job,
The pinion has the pinion depth etched onto the end of it, it is 4.375 inches.( I never took this into consideration before)
So using a depth and standard micrometer got to and measured what I had.
When fitting the pinion into my housing , the pinion depth was .024 from this, so to get that distance I needed to fit a .0025 shim , then to get a nice pattern I needed another .020,
I am now reasonable happy with what I have ended up with, But sure is a lot of work,
Im doing another next week, so know to start out with getting the pinion depth as marked on the new gears right to start with.
Like I said if using original ford gears they drop straight and only need the backlash done.
Thanks for the advice and help.
This will make a good article for the club magazine
Lawrie
 

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Thanks for bringing this to light...I wonder if the pinion on the Winters V8 units are marked in the same manor?
 
Lawrie said:
I am not using original ford gears, the ones I am using are reproduction ones.
they look nice and come from Italy.
Finally I got back to the job,
The pinion has the pinion depth etched onto the end of it, it is 4.375 inches.( I never took this into consideration before)
So using a depth and standard micrometer got to and measured what I had.
When fitting the pinion into my housing , the pinion depth was .024 from this, so to get that distance I needed to fit a .0025 shim , then to get a nice pattern I needed another .020,
I am now reasonable happy with what I have ended up with, But sure is a lot of work,
Im doing another next week, so know to start out with getting the pinion depth as marked on the new gears right to start with.
Like I said if using original ford gears they drop straight and only need the backlash done.
Thanks for the advice and help.
This will make a good article for the club magazine
Lawrie
Click to expand...
576611


576612
 
I set repros at .004” backlash and run them in with an electric motor for 5 minutes and it usually rechecks at .006 and I leave it. Repro gears have a little machine slag at the ends of the teeth that wear down quickly. The exception to this for me is the few times I’ve had them polished
 
This is a great thread. There is always more to learn.
Im setting up a 3:25 Italian gearset this weekend. Where did you end up putting the shims? Also, where did you get the shims? Thanks guys...
 
I will post some more on this in the next few days , I have another gears coming for another axle, I will also show my way of setting the pinion bearing preload.
the gears is the same make of the one I have been doing for my 34, so it will be interesting to see if it takes the same to set it up.
Lawrie
 
Here is a gear pattern, it's not an early Ford but the pattern is the same. He does a good job of describing how to get the correct pattern. Just .002 can make a big difference. It takes so much time to get it where it needs to be. Notice how he creates a "sunset or frown" that's what you're looking for. Then you check the back lash again. Back and forth you go until it gets as close as you can get it to be centered on both sides and have a slight frown and sunset pattern which gives it the oval contact pattern. It takes a lot of work to setup correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P7MhCIADhY
 
I set up a 3.25 new gear set with the help of Hot Rod works several years ago'
They told me the new gears were all slightly off and needed a shim under the pinion gear for good mesh. I believe I used ,020. The shims are available from Mc Master Carr. I also had to polish pinion shaft to get a sliding fit on the front bearing adjustment .

John
 
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