Front Perchbolt Removal

B

bucket t

Member
Have a bent front axle,and after stripping it down decided to remove the perch bolts and just take the wishbone off.I'd heard that this was difficult so soaked the connection in penetrating oil before attempting to press them out.
This is where the whole procedure gets ugly.The press came down and I was expecting a loud thud ,as they began to move,but no such luck,the ram just bent the ends of the bolt over like it was plastic.
OK what am I doing wrong,and are there any tricks and tips to make this exercise easier or even practical.Any help or advise greatly received.Dan
 
That is a difficult project at best. I had to disassemble 16 front axles and the only thing that had any success was to use an 3x air chisel. make sure the end of the bolt has a center drill in it and backing up the axle on a hard surface, apply a round stem to the bolt. It may take a minute or so to get it break loose.

Even this approach did not work all the time.

Good luck.
 
Be sure to run a nut on the end of the threads to protect them. I have an early 1928 front axle that I still can't get the spring perches and king pin lock bolts out.
 
As Will says you need a long throw air hammer.

He mentions a 3x hammer, but there are two types of air hammers. The X series are aircraft standard used to properly swege rivets. There are special rules and you have to use the correct hammer for the size rivet.

Then there are the 'automotive' kind.

The difference is in the diameter of the working hammer. The automotive hammers use a larger diameter which means more pressure per square inch and probably more mass so you get more energy per blow.

The X's relate to the length of the barrel, the 3x is like 3" long (been a while and that may not be perfectly correct). Automotive is like that too. The cheap ones are close to 1" long.

I happened to pick up a 4" throw automotive air hammer at a garage sale insanely cheap. I needed to get some perches out. So I cut off the end of a chisel tool and put the axle in my 150 lb vice (big vices are a wonderful thing). My brother who is heavier than I put his weight into it and pulled the trigger. It did not move right off, then it slowly started to move. The first one we tried has been cut off before I got it. So with our surprising success we moved to the good perch. Put a nut at the end to help guide the punch end. Same thing as the first perch. We had to take the nut off to push it through, but it cooperated.
The end of the perch was visibly mushroomed, but the nut was able to still be screwed on by hand!

So the right tools seem to the do the job.

The key ingredients from out success.

4" automotive air hammer (or one of the other long throw hammers). These can be expensive to buy. Learn what they look like and hope to find one cheap at a garage sale or flea market. You should be able to find a mechanic that will help.

Firmly mounted with zero movement axle. Do not discount firm mounting. A very small amount of movement could prevent the perch from coming out.

Solid well back holding of the air hammer.

Final rules of perch removal.

DO NOT heat the axle any more than the point where grease starts to smoke. The axles are heat treated and loose a significant amount of strength when heated.
Do not expect penetrating oils to do any good. The rust is a solid mass and they will not penetrate unless the perch is already loose enough to come out easy. Heat may allow the oil to penetrate, but see rule above.

A final note- it was a pain in the rear locating the information about air hammers when I looked a few years ago. The aircraft ones are easy to learn about. The automotive ones I learned about by finding the spec sheets from Chicago Pneumatics (I think).

Hope that was not too much information.
 
Kevin in NJ said:
As Will says you need a long throw air hammer.

He mentions a 3x hammer, but there are two types of air hammers. The X series are aircraft standard used to properly swege rivets. There are special rules and you have to use the correct hammer for the size rivet.

Then there are the 'automotive' kind.

The difference is in the diameter of the working hammer. The automotive hammers use a larger diameter which means more pressure per square inch and probably more mass so you get more energy per blow.

The X's relate to the length of the barrel, the 3x is like 3" long (been a while and that may not be perfectly correct). Automotive is like that too. The cheap ones are close to 1" long.

I happened to pick up a 4" throw automotive air hammer at a garage sale insanely cheap. I needed to get some perches out. So I cut off the end of a chisel tool and put the axle in my 150 lb vice (big vices are a wonderful thing). My brother who is heavier than I put his weight into it and pulled the trigger. It did not move right off, then it slowly started to move. The first one we tried has been cut off before I got it. So with our surprising success we moved to the good perch. Put a nut at the end to help guide the punch end. Same thing as the first perch. We had to take the nut off to push it through, but it cooperated.
The end of the perch was visibly mushroomed, but the nut was able to still be screwed on by hand!

So the right tools seem to the do the job.

The key ingredients from out success.

4" automotive air hammer (or one of the other long throw hammers). These can be expensive to buy. Learn what they look like and hope to find one cheap at a garage sale or flea market. You should be able to find a mechanic that will help.

Firmly mounted with zero movement axle. Do not discount firm mounting. A very small amount of movement could prevent the perch from coming out.

Solid well back holding of the air hammer.

Final rules of perch removal.

DO NOT heat the axle any more than the point where grease starts to smoke. The axles are heat treated and loose a significant amount of strength when heated.
Do not expect penetrating oils to do any good. The rust is a solid mass and they will not penetrate unless the perch is already loose enough to come out easy. Heat may allow the oil to penetrate, but see rule above.

A final note- it was a pain in the rear locating the information about air hammers when I looked a few years ago. The aircraft ones are easy to learn about. The automotive ones I learned about by finding the spec sheets from Chicago Pneumatics (I think).

Hope that was not too much information.
Click to expand...
No not too much information,good actually.I'm seeing the essence of your labours as saying that an air hammer and impact works better than just a straight push from a press.I work in a shop that has old rivet guns ,some are fairly large 11inch I'll see what it will do.Thanks,Dan
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
Be sure to run a nut on the end of the threads to protect them. I have an early 1928 front axle that I still can't get the spring perches and king pin lock bolts out.
Click to expand...
Hello Tom,My axle is a 1928 ,no trouble getting the king pin keepers out or king pins themselves ,just these perch bolts ,really married in there.Thanks,Dan
 
I recommended on another post on this topic to remove perches by twisting them out. First they need to be soaked with penetrating oil for a few days. Then install a water pump shaft in the perch where the shackle goes. Heat the axle--I only had a propane torch--to expand it. Keep the penetrating oil handy but keep the fire from the propane torch away. A fire extinguisher might be good to have handy too. Whack the water pump shaft with a 2 or 3 lb hammer. After repeated hits both clockwise and counter clockwise, using the penetrating fluid and heating and cooling the axle, the perch should come loose in a few evenings. Worked for me with original perches that had not been removed since 1931. Your perch will be undamaged especially at the threads. If necessary put a piece of pipe on the water pump shaft for more leverage.
 
I have never had any luck removing perch bolts without destroying them. On my 39 ford pickup restoration project, I had a bent axle and wanted to keep the radius arms. So, I applied much heat and drove them out with a drift and sledge hammer. My dad and I took turns holding the drift (a very trusting man!). Perch bolts are easy to come by. Don't spend too much time trying to "save them".
 
I used the long bar method through the shackle holes with about a 2 ft. throw and after twisting them a little and penetrating oil was able to whack them out with temporary nuts on the threads on the ends as Tom stated.
 
Had another go at removing my perchbolts,used a rivet hammer on the threaded end with a large nut to protect the threads.Mounted the axle securely in a large vice and used 90 PSI air pressure.Blasted away steadily for some time but no movement at all.Heated up the axle with a cutting torch,though not enough to damage it,blasted away at it again,still no movement.Soaked it in penetrating oil and did final try without success.Will try again using the twisting method described here.With all the oil on it it has to give eventually plus I've two larger rivet guns available if need be.
Thanks for all the help so far guys,Dan
 
I had one I ended up drilling out. It was too far gone to use, so not a big loss. Just alot of labor. Rod
 
HHHmmmm Perch bolts were no problem for me. They both came right out and went back in (With a coating of grease) with no resistance. I was pleasantly surprised as they looked liike they'd be troublesome but they wern't. Don't ask about rear drums on axles though.
Terry
 
It took me WEEKS to get mine out. Soaked daily with Croil and used Barry B's method above. 1/8 inch turn at a time . Was taking forever until Kevin in NJ sugested the air hammer. I don't have the long throw but made due with my standard shop kind. It still took some effort but they did come out. By what others have posted some are easier than others so be patient.
As a footnote. Make sure you secure the axle when working on it. I dropped mine on my big toe (over a year ago) and my flip flops didn't slow it down a bit. LOL. My toe nail is still half black.
 
Rusty Homestead Fl said:
It took me WEEKS to get mine out. Soaked daily with Croil and used Barry B's method above. 1/8 inch turn at a time . Was taking forever until Kevin in NJ sugested the air hammer. I don't have the long throw but made due with my standard shop kind. It still took some effort but they did come out. By what others have posted some are easier than others so be patient.
As a footnote. Make sure you secure the axle when working on it. I dropped mine on my big toe (over a year ago) and my flip flops didn't slow it down a bit. LOL. My toe nail is still half black.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that,yes there does seem to be variation between difficulty in removal problems with these.Hard to say why,but may be due to local weather conditions the vehicles worked in.The ones in my axle are original,and the car was left out in the elements by it's former owner.It rains a lot here,so I would expect the rust has really bonded the axle to the bolts.
Ouch,had black nails but never a black toe nail,we usually wear steel toed boots up here when working,but then it's also a lot cooler here most days.
 
HI: I want to know if you got them out. I hade mine out but I didn't do it the way you guys did it. I took mine and heated them up and pressed them out what a *****. But now I'm going to end up taking them out again. any idea's thanks reggiedog
 
I had an experience person show me how to get the spring perches out of the axle. First of all, if the spring perch is frozen in the axel, DO NOT try to drive or press them out. You will end up mushrooming the spring perch and then you have real problems.

Try this. Have a 2 to 3 foot bar that will fit through the spring perch bushing hole. Make sure the axle is securely held down. Use a rose bud fitting on a tourch. This will heat up the axle and spring purch but not melt it. Heat it for a couple of minutes so the axle and perch is bright red. Quickly dump ice water on the axle and perch. This will make the metal contract. Twist the bar back and forth. This should loosen the perch in the axle. Then use a heavy hammer (at least 4 or 5 lbs) to hit the bar and drive the perch out of the axle. I did this last winter and it took me about 3 minutes to get each perch out. The trick is, you are not mushrooming the spring perch. This will only make matters worse. This will work!
 
I had an experience person show me how to get the spring perches out of the axle. First of all, if the spring perch is frozen in the axel, DO NOT try to drive or press them out. You will end up mushrooming the spring perch and then you have real problems.

Try this. Have a 2 to 3 foot bar that will fit through the spring perch bushing hole. Make sure the axle is securely held down. Use a rose bud fitting on a tourch. This will heat up the axle and spring purch but not melt it. Heat it for a couple of minutes so the axle and perch is bright red. Quickly dump ice water on the axle and perch. This will make the metal contract. Twist the bar back and forth. This should loosen the perch in the axle. Then use a heavy hammer (at least 4 or 5 lbs) to hit the bar and drive the perch out of the axle. I did this last winter and it took me about 3 minutes to get each perch out. The trick is, you are not mushrooming the spring perch. This will only make matters worse. This will work!
 
Easy Rider said:
I had an experience person show me how to get the spring perches out of the axle. First of all, if the spring perch is frozen in the axel, DO NOT try to drive or press them out. You will end up mushrooming the spring perch and then you have real problems.

Try this. Have a 2 to 3 foot bar that will fit through the spring perch bushing hole. Make sure the axle is securely held down. Use a rose bud fitting on a tourch. This will heat up the axle and spring purch but not melt it. Heat it for a couple of minutes so the axle and perch is bright red. Quickly dump ice water on the axle and perch. This will make the metal contract. Twist the bar back and forth. This should loosen the perch in the axle. Then use a heavy hammer (at least 4 or 5 lbs) to hit the bar and drive the perch out of the axle. I did this last winter and it took me about 3 minutes to get each perch out. The trick is, you are not mushrooming the spring perch. This will only make matters worse. This will work!
Click to expand...
Hello Easy rider,Like your approach except for the part about heating the axle up until red.I've a book that says very cleary ,do not heat Ford axles up to red as the axles will lose their tempering.I think the key to success with perch removal is much penetrating oil,a little heat ,say6 to 700 degrees F. much persistance and a lot of patience.Mine are soaking right now and on Monday I'll try the press again with the application of some heat.Dan
 
I had one so stuck that I had to drill it out. Even then there is still some of the perch bolt left in the axle. so I took a thin hack saw blade and sawed between the axle and wishbone to cut it so I could remove the wishbone.What a bee-atch.I got the wishbone off but the axle still has some of the perch bolt frozen in it.I bent a press trying to get it out. So I gave up and bought another axle.

Would it be a good idea to coat the new perch bolts with something before installing them so that they don't get welded in there again?
 
If you have a hole drilled completely through, heat the hole as hot as you can while keeping the axle boss cool. The perch metal will compress because it can't expand into the cooler axle boss. Then cool the drilled perch metal. They do loosen up.
Had one to do on a 8N ford tractor a couple years ago and it worked well.
Like Ed says, use neverseize upon reassembly.
 
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