Kinda OT; The Worst Thing You Can Do With Your Model-A...

BRENT in 10-uh-C

BRENT in 10-uh-C

Well-known member
I cannot begin to tell you how often I have heard the saying 'The worst thing you can do with an old car is not drive it.', -and I heard that phrase multiple times last weekend at a show about someone's Model-A. The more I have spent time thinking about that saying, I'm not sure I totally agree with that statement, ...so help me out with this.

So if someone has a really nicely restored Model-A that was correctly restored, does it really go downhill or deteriorate just setting? (Now I am not referring to a freshly restored car that is immediately parked under a tree in the backyard for a couple of years, -but more about a Model-A that is stored in a climate controlled garage or museum setting.) So with the above said, exactly what 'deteriorates' on the vehicle from setting?

Let us begin by discussing the mechanicals that we feel will deteriorate from setting.
Beginning with the Engine, what goes bad from just setting that wouldn't go bad from frequent or routine driving?? Are we thinking the Crankshaft will go bad from just sitting? How about the bearing materials?? Will the Valves??? I am going to offer my thoughts that none of those 3 components will deteriorate. I agree an argument could be made that Valve Springs could potentially lose spring pressure if they were under compression for long periods of time ...however I have disassembled Model-A engines that were in storage for 25+ years and when I test the Valve Springs to rate the pressure, often times that are equal to (-or maybe under a lb difference) each other spring in the Engine. So, not really sure if that is a valid argument. Some might say a fiber Timing Gear deteriorates from setting but does it really? Most fiber gears likely deteriorate from age whether setting or being used. Likely the same could be said for rubber Hoses and the Belt. Am I missing anything??

How about the Transmission or the Rear End? I don't think anything internally in either component would degrade more just from sitting vs. degradation from being driven. I think most of us would agree that the Braking system will not degrade from just setting.

Tires & Tubes are another thing that their age seems to be the contributing factor where routine driving would not add longevity to the tire or tube over sitting. Bodywork & Paint seem to fall into that category as does Upholstery & Trim. Would Electrical Wiring or components still have corrosion in contacts equally if driven vs. stored? Would a Muffler & Tailpipe last longer if the vehicle was driven routinely in lieu of that vehicle just being parked??

So if we HAD to make an argument for something, maybe that would be the fuel system -HOWEVER I am not sure if that is totally accurate on all accounts. When non-ethanol fuels are used, the fuel does not sour. So allowing a tank or carburetor to set with ethanol fuels likely falls into the category of imprudently storing a vehicle under a carport without protection from rodents or vandals.

Additional Thoughts??
 
Not a Model A but I worked on a restored 1931 Buick that sat for a 15 years in a garage. In my opinion it should have been driven at least 2,000 miles after it was restored and started on a monthly basis. The reason is that the intake valves (overhead) were stuck from the gunk and time. All of the intake valve pushrods ended up being bent when I started the car. I straightened them out and freed up the valves but after sitting for another week the valves were stuck again and the pushrods bent again. I put several additives in the fuel tank and crankcase oil, but that did not help. The gasoline in the tank was rancid. I changed it out but there was probably enough rancid residue to contribute to the valve sticking problem. The Model A does not have pushrods, but how many times have we heard stories about the valves being stuck open on a car that has sat for a while. We have also heard stories about rancid gasoline in the tank and carburetor.
 
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I think Mr. Terry pretty well covered it, on all points.
Storing ANY old car in a truly controlled environment goes a long long way in preserving it. I've seen NICE old cars parked in a Morton building (pole barn for you non-Illinois guys)on a farm, with a gravel and dirt floor.... THAT kills them believe you me....The temp changes, the moisture, the general dirt and filth, then come the critters. A mouse can squeeze through a hole 1/2 inch wide no problem-o. Birds getting in and crapping on it....
 
"To add life to a car, use it. This is the conclusion reached by automotive engineers, after experiments relating to the effects on motor cars of idleness and action"

"Tinkering is another factor in the life of the average automobile, according to the motor experts. Those who spend much time treating imaginary ills in their motor vehicles loose an appreciable share of the service built into their cars. Periodic inspections by good mechanics are more satisfactory."

Ford News, September 1, 1927

Find & read 'Dr. Charles Waddington and the effects of excessive maintenance by the British RAF during WWll.'
 
A few years ago a friend bought really clean Vicky that was in a museum for 20 years or so.

The car looked really nice but it would hardly roll or steer. Turns out the grease in the bearing and steering basically dried out. And yes, it had a couple of stuck valves that we ended up pulling and cleaning out the guides.
 
Speaking from personal experience this summer, I drove my Tudor some this spring and then it got parked for 3-3 1/2 months because the weather got too hot to enjoy it. I turned the fuel off and ran it until it stopped. I use ethanol free fuel. When I tried to drive it a couple of weeks ago it ran like crap. Had to pull the carb off and clean it out because a couple of jets were gummed up. Runs great again! So in my opinion, yes, it is not good for them to sit and not be driven. Of course I have also seen the other end of the spectrum. My dad's car set for 15 years and I basically put gas in it and drove it to his funeral. So there you go.
 
I bought a museum car and when I started it, the paper gaskets were pretty leaky. Not sure if that was a result of sitting.
 
I have a B engine that was left sitting for quite a long time. When I dismantled it, there was a groove corroded in the journals in a line right where the caps meet the block or rod.
I've never heard of this before but.....
 
Good thoughts above. I am going to offer my thoughts in no random order;

• Gaskets that start leaking after a vehicle has been parked for a lengthy period likely would have also leaked much earlier if the vehicle had been driven routinely.

• Any cast bearing material that begins to corrode due to storage was probably not the correct composition anyway. Lead-based Babbitt tends to form a white chalky film on the outside. This is a good way to tell if swap meet Babbitt bars is worth buying/using. Always use Tin-based Babbitt materials.

• Is it possible that non-ethanol fuel really wasn't ethanol-free fuel? Airplanes are required to use ethanol-free fuel, ...and they often sit in an unheated hanger, -and 99% of the time they don't run like crap or fall out of the air due to a plugged carburetor.

• Regarding Stuck Valves, ...it has been my experiences that Valves stick in the Guides due to either rust on the stem, and/or heavy carbon deposits on the stem. Cheap aftermarket steel Valves do not have any type of hard chrome (-or ??) surfacing on the stems, -or it has been worn through due to excessive wear, so if the engine would have been operated it is likely they would have failed prematurely anyway. A quality stainless Valve won't rust. Cheap Valve Guides (-especially two-piece Guides) are generally very poor fitting in at least one area of the 360° ID of the Guide. Whether driven routinely or stored, they both are going to fail. Again, from my view, it isn't the storage that caused the failure. In other words, the engine was not in good operating condition when it was stored, -so it really isn't the storage that caused the problem.

• Cheaper Wax-based Greases do congeil over time however as soon as the bearing has/had heat reintroduced, it should become flexible again, however I'm not really sure what the service life expectation of a Paraffin-based grease really should be? I think Ford Engineer's recommended service on Wheel Bearings as in their 5000 mile or twice a year Level 2 Service. So whether a vehicle was driven weekly, -or whether it was stored, they knew that every 6 months the grease needed to be replaced. My view is either way (storing or driving), every 6 months the Grease needed to be changed so I'm not sure congealing Grease is a detrimental factor from prolonged storage.

• I had this same basic conversation with a hobbyist that storing any vehicle under a carport or in an old dirt floor barn is really no different than putting a cheap tarp over a vehicle stored under a backyard tree. Even if the collector vehicle was operated on a weekly basis yet stored under that tarp in those poor conditions, I tend to believe they are going to find it deteriorating faster than one that was kept in a climate-controlled environment. So was it really the vehicle not being driven that caused the damage? My vote was it was going to fail whether it was driven routinely -or parked if the storage conditions were the same.

Thanks for posting thoughts on this. I think sometimes we tend to blame things that after we think about it for awhile, there is a strong possibility they really got the blame undeservedly.
 
Regarding gasoline: Modern gasoline, since about 1917, is a mixture of different molecules. Some are light, and some are medium weight, and some are heavy. The light stuff evaporates easily and makes for easy starting. The medium and heavy weight stuff will burn once the engine warms up a bit. If the gasoline sits for any length of time the light and medium weight stuff will evaporate, leaving the heavy stuff which is a lot like tar. This is true for straight gasoline without ethanol.

Aviation fuel is one molecule. The different weights have different names that I cannot remember. The aviation fuel is a medium weight. It has to be that way because you don't want the gasoline to evaporate (boil) as you gain altitude, which will cause problems in the fuel system. Plus you don't want the heavy stuff that will gum up things. This is one reason that an airplane engine is hard to start, needs a carburetor heater, and has to be thoroughly warmed up before take off. The carburetor heater is also needed at altitude where the air is cold.

In one of my automotive engineering classes in college, the instructor boiled gasoline to demonstrate the different components. This was way before ethanol was added. It was amazing to see the tar left after the other components were evaporated. You can do this yourself if you do it safely. If I remember correctly he used an electric hotplate. No flames. It was done in a classroom, but it is probably safer to do it outside with a fire extinguisher handy.
 
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Regarding valves: Rust and carbon will definitely cause valves to stick. But the tar component in gasoline will also cause them to stick. The tar problem is worse if the clearances are tight. That is the reason that I thought that the 31 Buick should have had some miles put on it after it was restored. Plus, if it had been run on a monthly basis the gasoline would not have gone rancid, contributing to the problem with the stuck valves.
 
nkaminar said:
Aviation fuel is one molecule. The different weights have different names that I cannot remember. The aviation fuel is a medium weight. It has to be that way because you don't want the gasoline to evaporate (boil) as you gain altitude, which will cause problems in the fuel system.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by Avgas is "one molecule". Avgas is made up of many components, primarily Alkylate, a mixture of isooctanes and other petroleum distillates. It is less volatile than Mogas and has a lower Reid Vapor pressure than Mogas to prevent vapor lock at high altitudes.
 
You are right. I stand corrected. Apparently being located on the moon means that you are familiar with high altitude.
 
I scanned this thread pretty quickly as I’ve been travelling, but I did not see mention of the sludge that builds up in the pan and valve chamber after a car has been run ( usually without an oil filter) then put away for an extended period. I’ve experienced this, up to and including a blocked bearing oil passage.
 
My thoughts on long term storage's effect on gasoline: Some years ago I was called in to figure out why a fresh rebuilt long block kept sticking the exhaust valves. The shop had replaced the heads 2 or 3 times and the rebuilder refused to pay for more. I found deposits on the exhaust stems that came off with carb cleaner. Turns out this mid-70's Ford p/u had run on propane only since nearly new and now the owner was going back to gasoline. Fresh gas was dissolving the tar and residue from the old, evaporated gas which coated the exhaust valve stems, making them stick. Same thing on a Bronco that sat for several years. I started it on the old gas and it ran great at first but then began missing. Was able to remove the springs and flush the guides with carb cleaner.
So drain the tank or flush it out before starting!
On oil, condensation can build up and cause acid formation. That same Bronco had pinholes in the bottom of the oil pan from sitting with old oil. No leaks until I washed the sludge out! On a Model A, acidic oil could also rust out the dipper trays.
Why did that old car sit abandoned for so many years without being prepped for storage? Maybe the old guy parked it, went in the house and keeled over from a heart attack. Or was crippled by a stroke, etc. and the kids could have cared less about the car. Or it needed some work and he just never felt good enough to get out there and get it done. Thus no thought is given to prepping for storage.
Think what happens to the Model A that gets started and ran for 20 minutes or so every month or two in the winter. Without a thermostat, that engine will never get warm enough to evaporate out the acid-causing moisture. Letting it idle in the garage is, I think, worse than not starting it all winter.
 
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