Cowl Lights - Factory Installed?

Pilotdave

Well-known member
While discussing whether our Fordor started life as a Standard (160 A) or a Town Sedan (160 B), I was asked if the cowl lights had been installed at the factory (Town Sedan) or later in its life (Standard). My initial response was that I couldn't tell and had no way to know 94 years after it was assembled.

But I also am reminded daily that there are many things about Model A's that I don't know - hence this question: Is there any way to tell whether the car came from the factory with cowl lights by examining the car?

Thanks very much.
David
 
The only way that I can think of is by checking the back side of the cowl where the cowl lights come through the sheet metal. There is a brace there if I remember right and you would have to gauge if it is rusty or fresh metal.

Mike
 
Thanks, 1930artdeco.....possibly a clue.

Perhaps there might be some unique markings on original cowl lamp units?
 
I think the braces are there from the factory if your car had cowl lights or not. I you have repro cowl lights you would know it, they are junk. They are easy to spot. The arms are thicker and when mounted on the car, they don't even point straight ahead. They are kinda walleyed.
 
Dave - There are easier ways to tell a Fordor vs Town Sedan. The dome light in a TS is at the rear of the passenger compartment, while the FD dome light is in the center. Also, the TS came with a folding armrest in the upper rear seat cushion, while the FD did not. Unless I’m mistaken, there was not a factory option of cowl lamps on a standard FD. Dealers might have installed them, though.

Also, if cowl lamps were installed at the factory then the headlights should be single bulb rather than two bulb. Also only two wires in the wiring harness going to the headlamps. All of the above could be “upgraded” after production, of course, but it would not be a trivial task.
 
Dave - There are easier ways to tell a Fordor vs Town Sedan. The dome light in a TS is at the rear of the passenger compartment, while the FD dome light is in the center. Also, the TS came with a folding armrest in the upper rear seat cushion, while the FD did not. Unless I’m mistaken, there was not a factory option of cowl lamps on a standard FD. Dealers might have installed them, though.

Also, if cowl lamps were installed at the factory then the headlights should be single bulb rather than two bulb. Also only two wires in the wiring harness going to the headlamps. All of the above could be “upgraded” after production, of course, but it would not be a trivial task.

All good points, JayJay. I'm not sure the Slant Window Town Sedan had a fold down arm rest but all the other items you listed would point to a Town Sedan. Unless, at a latter date when someone restored it, made a Standard Fordor into a Town Sedan.
 
Adding to JayJay's comments:

All '30-31 Model A's had a hole in the inner brace that runs across the cowl panels. These holes were for cowl light arms, if the body was to receive cowl lights. Otherwise it would have been a nightmare on the assembly line to determine which bodies were to have cowl lights (either standard or specially ordered) and which ones were not, and then drill the hole as needed. It was smarter to simply have a hole in each bracket, whether it was to be used for cowl lights or not. I'm not sure looking at that hole from inside would tell you much. If you are lucky, the wooden block between this brace and the cowl panel will still be present if the car had had cowl lights. This little block of wood kept the cowl panel from collapsing as the large nut on the cowl light arm was tightened. If that block is still there and looks really old, chances are it came from the factory or dealer that way - although some restorer may have added it in the past. In that case, the block would look newer.
Unless your car was stripped down when you got it, there are other ways to tell if your body came with cowl lights, at least based on what was supplied with each body style. Dome lights in the deluxe and upper-priced sedans was oval shaped and was located between the back two wooden cross bows, above the rear window, while the standard models had a round dome light located over the rear passenger's feet. If your body has the oval dome light, it most likely came with cowl lights, which were standard equipment in the higher-priced "luxury" sedans. The oval dome lights had a toggle switch on the center post, so you should see signs of a cutout in the wood for the switch, as well as the remains of wiring running from the dome light in the rear to the terminal box. The round dome light, on the other hand, had a simple on-off lever in the light itself. The wiring for this style would only run from over the passengers' feet to the terminal box.
If the interior garnish pieces were woodgrained instead of painted, that's another indication of a deluxe sedan style that would have had cowl lights.
Any original interior left intact? Although not conclusive proof, the more expensive sedans with cowl lights had more luxurious upholstery than the standard models without cowl lights. Mohair was the norm in these higher-priced sedans, although just about any interior in the Ford line COULD HAVE been ordered. The 1929 Murray Town Sedan, for instance, had the standard body style grey check upholstery offered as an option in addition to mohair. If your body has any mohair upholstery left, it was most likely a deluxe, higher priced Model A that would have had cowl lights.
Center arm rest in the rear? Although variations have come to light, the deluxe sedans had a folding center arm rest in the rear, whereas the standard sedan bodies did not. If your car has a center folding armrest, it probably had cowl lights.
Finally, check the quality of the hole drilled in upper cowl panel. Is it uniform and drilled cleanly or sloppily drilled? If the latter, someone may have not had a large enough drill bit to make this hole for the cowl light arm. Signs of filing the hole larger with a rattail file or jagged edges would be a telltale sign that the lights were installed by a "restorer".
Well, all this should be enough to help decide if your car had cowl lights originally. Does it really matter, though?
Marshall
 
Last edited:
Thanks, Marshall, good points added to mine.

All good points, JayJay. I'm not sure the Slant Window Town Sedan had a fold down arm rest but all the other items you listed would point to a Town Sedan. Unless, at a latter date when someone restored it, made a Standard Fordor into a Town Sedan.
Y-B: For what it's worth, my E31 S/W TS has the folding arm rest in the rear seat cushion.
 
To go along with Jay Jay's reply, my August built S/W TS does not have a folding arm rest. I've been told early cars (like Tay Jay's) had them, but at some point, they no longer did.
 
Well, thanks to all who have responded. I really appreciate all the finer points offered up in your posts.

I started this thread because my prior research into what separates the TS from the Standard suggested that several of the features (such as rear oval dome light) that were present on the TS were sometimes present on the Standard. Also, my car has also been restored, offering the opportunity for certain features to be added or changed. And some of the TS cars weren't made with certain features, notably door pockets and rear center arm rests while others were. My conclusion was that I would never know for sure unless there was some other way to tell!

This thread suggests a couple things that I can check such as the cowl bracket holes/wood blocks and the headlights. Which I will do soon. That said, even if both of those point to TS, this car could have been carefully converted from Standard to TS at some point.

Does it matter? No, it doesn't....I'm trying to determine this just because it'd be satisfying to know! And because there's a wealth of knowledge out there that might offer up some good suggestions for pushing the matter a little further. As it has! I will report back with further findings. And thanks again to all who responded.

David
 
Well, thanks to all who have responded. I really appreciate all the finer points offered up in your posts.

I started this thread because my prior research into what separates the TS from the Standard suggested that several of the features (such as rear oval dome light) that were present on the TS were sometimes present on the Standard. Also, my car has also been restored, offering the opportunity for certain features to be added or changed. And some of the TS cars weren't made with certain features, notably door pockets and rear center arm rests while others were. My conclusion was that I would never know for sure unless there was some other way to tell!

This thread suggests a couple things that I can check such as the cowl bracket holes/wood blocks and the headlights. Which I will do soon. That said, even if both of those point to TS, this car could have been carefully converted from Standard to TS at some point.

Does it matter? No, it doesn't....I'm trying to determine this just because it'd be satisfying to know! And because there's a wealth of knowledge out there that might offer up some good suggestions for pushing the matter a little further. As it has! I will report back with further findings. And thanks again to all who responded.

David

Does your car have the body tag on the firewall that shows the body number? That should tell you if it’s a Town Sedan or not.
 
at the terminal block there should be a little angle metal to hold the wire and also near each cowl light on a factory install— and possibly on a dealership installation
 
Indeed there is! I've glanced at it several times but never focused on it as it's a new appearing tag. Below the heading "BODY NUMBER" is a number that reads "M 160B 5453"; below that number it reads "The Murray Body Corporation of America". The tag was probably attached when the car was restored.....and I'd like to think that I can rely on it being a reproduction of an original tag.

Also, the headlights are single bulb units, suggesting that cowl lights were originally installed. Again, no way to know that with total certainty, but .......

Given the above, I'm going to go with Town Sedan.

Thanks again to you guys - really appreciate the help!
 
Indeed there is! I've glanced at it several times but never focused on it as it's a new appearing tag. Below the heading "BODY NUMBER" is a number that reads "M 160B 5453"; below that number it reads "The Murray Body Corporation of America". The tag was probably attached when the car was restored.....and I'd like to think that I can rely on it being a reproduction of an original tag.

Also, the headlights are single bulb units, suggesting that cowl lights were originally installed. Again, no way to know that with total certainty, but .......

Given the above, I'm going to go with Town Sedan.

Thanks again to you guys - really appreciate the help!
For 1931 cars Murray Body Number series 160B was associated with Ford Body Style 160-B, which is a Slant Window Town Sedan. See https://www.fordgarage.com/pages/US2831bodystyles.htm.

And Dave, I apologize for not suggesting that you check the body tag. That's pretty fundamental and I forgot all about it! Y-B saved the day.
 
No worries, JayJay. I should have checked the tag a long time ago! Especially as at least one other poster made the same suggestion as Y-B.
 
Óver the last nearly 100 years folks did many strange things. I purchased an almost driver quality 29 Murray sedan. No cowl lights but then I realized it had all the town sedan features mentioned in this thread. The cracking bondo on the cowl where the lights should be was the giveaway! So when I started to drill out the bondo I found steel wool as the backer for the bondo. I did buy repo cowl lights, they are certainly good enough. Ok so where is the wire? The cross wire was missing but there was a short piece of wire near the drivers side cowl that must be it. Checked and it had power with light switch all the way to the left. What I discovered next was that the replacement wiring harness was for a non cowl light car as it had three wires going to the headlights. The headlights are single bulb and the power wire for the cowl lights runs alongside the headlights wires and is connected to the green trace wire under the radiator shell where the red and yellow trace wires are connected to the single bulb headlight. So it all works.so the wiring was cobbled to make the cowl lights work that were not there!
 
Back
Top