Looking for expert opinion to check my work.

T

The "A" Team

Member
Hi everyone,

Over the past year, I put the engine, transmission, etc. back into the 1930 Model A Coupe my father left me after he passed away after cleaning A LOT of rust out of everything.

Over the past two weeks I started and ran the car for while and noticed that after a while of running a lot of coolant (coolant mixed with water 50/50) came out from where I think is the overflow, because all of the hoses and connections are fine, and I see what looks like coolant running down the front and back of the radiator and on the top of the radiator shell. I looked at the motometer and it looks like it's running right on the normal temperature line and not overheating. The coolant comes out bright green and not discolored which I'd like to believe means there's little to no rust in the radiator causing a blockage.

Second, There is a rattling sound happening while the car is running, which I thought could've been from the radiator shell, but it's on tight and when I held on to it, the rattling was still happening.

Lastly, I basically have to recharge the battery every time I want to start up the car, and it dies very quickly even after running. Every time I put the car back in the garage I disconnect both battery cables (I just bought a cutoff switch, but haven't had a chance to install it yet), so I would think it shouldn't be discharging.

Here are my questions:

  • What could be going on with the coolant situation? Should I try to flush out the radiator with rust remover stuff, vinegar, etc., or is it just seeking it's level?

  • What could be the source of the rattling?

  • Could the battery dying even while the car is running be a generator problem? Is there a way to test to see if the generator is still good and putting voltage back to the battery?

  • Does anyone know of any Model A experts, mechanics or both that are in the Bergen, Passaic counties area of NJ that may be able to come and look at my car to "check my work"?

A big thanks to anyone who may be able to help.

​​​​​​​John
 
Don't fill the radiator to the top. Drain all coolant and only replace 2 1/2 gallons. See if that stops the overflowing condition.
After turning off the ignition key to stop the engine, look at the ammeter needle. If it's in the discharge area, there is a short in the electrical system or the generator cutout points are causing a drain. Also, check that the stoplights do not remain on. If the battery is good, there are not many other places that could drain the battery so quickly.
Marshall
ADDED: If the ammeter reads a discharge and the stoplights are not on, tap the top of the generator cutout with a small hammer or wrench a couple times to unstick the points inside. Then check the ammeter to see if that stopped the drain.
 
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Rattling sound: Check that the two radiator support rods are tight in the upper radiator tank and at the firewall. Loose nuts here will make an awful racket that telegraphs through the metal firewall.
Ensure that the two front spring clamps are tight on the spring. They often work loose and will cause a rattle as the engine idles and the chassis rocks.
Marshall
 
Model As will usually find their own coolant level. If it starts out close to full, the expansion can push right out the overflow. These aren't pressurized systems so they are free to vent overboard. If there is a leaky head gasket, it can push compression into the water jacket. This can happen due to warpage from overheating or just old age & loose hardware.

There are several things that can cause a rattle. We can't listen to it with you so it would be hard to diagnose. Rod or crank journal wear is usually associated with a knock so rattle doesn't really fit that. The cam can have a worn journal that will rattle and the spring and plunger in the front of the cam can also rattle. There are other things that can rattle and there can also be piston slap on a worn engine.

We need to know if it has a generator or if it has an alternator. Generators have a cut out or diode to prevent reverse flow of battery power to the generator when the engine is at rest. If there is no flow while operating the engine then the battery will show a discharge on the ammeter and the battery voltage will slowly decrease. If it shows a charge then a volt meter connected to the battery should show a voltage above the 6.2-volt range of a fully charged 6-volt battery. The battery regulates the system voltage so the charging system has to be well connected to the battery any time the car is operated. If it's not then the generator can put out more power than it should and overheat things.

If the engine has an alternator then the voltage output is generally well above the battery level on voltage. If it's fully charged then there won't be much of an ammeter movement off the center line since an alternator has a built in regulator that controls both voltage and current output. It has internal diodes to control reverse flow so it doesn't have an external cut out mounted to it.

What ever it has for a charging system, it has to rotate to keep working so it should have enough belt tension to allow the water pump & fan to function as well as the generator or alternator. Not too tight but tight enough to function with little or no slippage.
 
"A"Team .................. you didn't mention if the battery is new or perhaps a year or two old. Was it fully charged when you got it? What is the charging rate on your battery charger? 2 amp, 4, 6, 10? Most 6V batteries are rated at 100-110 amps. If a 100 amp battery goes completely and is charged with a 10 amp charger, roughly sepaking, it will take 10 hours to fully charge. you don't mention why you need to recharge the battery each time. Is it dead? Does the engine crank slowly? Are your battery cables sufficiently heavy for the job at hand? 6V systems take cables that are twice as thick as those for 12V modern cars. You mention the "rust factor" as a reason for the work you have performed. You could have a bad ground at the chassis if this is the case. all these things could add up to a battery that "seems" sub par. Good Luck
 
Use the volt setting on your multimeter to measure the battery voltage. A fully charged 6 volt battery will measure 6.2 volts before you start the car. After you start the car the battery voltage will be a little lower because of the energy needed to start the car. Run the engine at a fast idle (1,100 rpm or so) and measure the battery voltage. It should be about 7 volts if it is charging. Double these numbers if you have a 12 volt car.

Most people use the ammeter to determine the health of the battery and charging system. The generator should be adjusted with the third brush to provide about 10 amps of forward (charging) current when the car is first driven after starting. I like a volt meter installed in the car as well as the ammeter as I feel it is a better indicator of the charging and battery health. The third brush is adjusted to keep the battery charged but not over charged. It is re adjusted for different conditions, like night driving, long trips or short trips, etc.
 
bobbader said:
"A"Team .................. you didn't mention if the battery is new or perhaps a year or two old. Was it fully charged when you got it? What is the charging rate on your battery charger? 2 amp, 4, 6, 10? Most 6V batteries are rated at 100-110 amps. If a 100 amp battery goes completely and is charged with a 10 amp charger, roughly sepaking, it will take 10 hours to fully charge. you don't mention why you need to recharge the battery each time. Is it dead? Does the engine crank slowly? Are your battery cables sufficiently heavy for the job at hand? 6V systems take cables that are twice as thick as those for 12V modern cars. You mention the "rust factor" as a reason for the work you have performed. You could have a bad ground at the chassis if this is the case. all these things could add up to a battery that "seems" sub par. Good Luck
Click to expand...

To answer the questions about the battery and charger. I'm using a Schauer 10 amp select-a-charge battery charger (picture attached).

It was a new battery when I bought it last year.

I bought the battery cables from one of the Model A online stores (Mac's, Tam's, Mike's, etc.), and they are thick.

I usually try to charge it for at least a couple of hours before trying to start it up. When I turn the ignition on (pop it out) after charging, the ammeter moves slightly, a few lines, to the left. Then when I first start it up after charging, it turns right away and fast (sometimes the starter spins a few times until it finally contacts the flywheel). After letting it run for a little while, shutting it off and then trying to start it again, the flywheel either struggles to turn, like it doesn't have enough power, and/or, pushing the starter does nothing at all.
 

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Another update:

I just used a voltmeter on the battery. Without any wires attached, it measured 6.11 volts. After connecting the wires and not touching the ignition, the voltmeter showed a drop in voltage right away, 5 volts, 4.3 volts, 3.98 volts etc., over the course of about 10 seconds (the headlights are not on).

Attached is a picture of my engine with all wiring attached. I don't have the brake lights attached yet.
 

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It indicates that you have a possible bad cutout. Disconnect the wires to the cutout (on top of the generator) and try your test again. If you get a better result connect the one wire coming from the junction box to the cutout and do the test again. If the test is then bad then you need to replace or rebuild the cutout. If good then connect the second wire to the cut out and if the test is then bad you have a short in the wiring somewhere.

Most likely the fault in in the cutout.

Charge your battery overnight. Take the battery to an automotive parts store so that they can do a load test. Sometime if the battery sits for a while uncharged it can be bad even though it is only a year old.
 
Maybe it is just my imagination but in post #8 , photo #3, it looks like all the wires are fastened to the generator output terminal and nothing fastened to the cutout output. If so the cutout is not in the circuit and the generator would be trying to motor with the belt installed.

If so there should be 10 or so amp discharge on meter.
 
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Benson said:
Maybe it is just my imagination but in post #8 , photo #3, it looks like all the wires are fastened to the generator output terminal and nothing fastened to the cutout output. If so the cutout is not in the circuit and the generator would be trying to motor with the belt installed.

If so there should be 10 -15 or more amp discharge on meter.
Click to expand...

How does it look now? (pic attached)

Does anything get connected to the screw the original wires were attached to?
 

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The "A" Team said:
How does it look now? (pic attached)

Does anything get connected to the screw the original wires were attached to?
Click to expand...


The above photo in post 12 now shows the normal wiring setup.

Of course the tail light wire is missing.

The cutout in photo is a REPRO not original. I do not know what application would use that screw terminal.

Unless: Maybe was used on the 32 and later generator that did not have the terminal but instead had two wires coming out of the generator.
 
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Ford used 3-brush generator cut outs clear up through 1939 and clear up into the 50s on tractors. Just make sure the generator output stud is well insulated from the generator case and that the foot on the cut out input is not touching any grounds. Also make certain that that battery wire going to the front can't short out on the cut out case. The cut out looks to be a later unit than what a model A would normally use but it should still do the job if it works. Electro-mechanical cut out relays can be tested but it takes some equipment to do that. The points on the relay pole can stick together and not open the circuit and they can get burned and no longer let current pass when the points are in closed position. The top cap would have to be removed to check it out but that may take some grinding since they are resistance welded in a couple of little spots on the bottom where it joins the relay frame.
 
Update:

It looks like switching the wires may have solved the battery problem. I tested the battery this morning with the voltmeter and it read 5.8 volts. Unfortunately it wouldn't do anything when the starter was pressed, but after I charged it for about 30 minutes, it read 6.3 volts, and started. another good thing was when I measured the voltage as it was running, it showed between 7.2 - 7.4 volts, which I assume shows it's getting voltage back to it from the generator.

Second, I put two links of videos of the engine running with the noise. It may be hard to hear, but it's much louder in person. I checked all of the connections for the radiator and they are all solid, I even pulled on the fan, and it felt solid too.

I'm going to take the belt off today when I get home and start it up to make sure it's not in the engine. I'm thinking it may be the water pump for some reason, and could also be related to the overflowing coolant.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19zyAAgmNK141_nij2guumUNBFOp0WvmR/view?usp=drive_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12zQbIJfqeQCRwWfprKbt9JTH_gmshjfS/view?usp=drive_link
 
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Take the belt off as you planned but if you still have the noise, use a mechanic's stethoscope to pinpoint the noise. You can buy the stethoscope on line for low cost. Or you can use a stick held up to your ear. The stick will transport the noise. Another trick is to use a hose or tube held to your ear. Recording the noise in slow motion mode on your phone may help in diagnosing the noise.

Check the camshaft timing gear for worn teeth or see if it is loose. The side plate on the starboard side of the engine comes off fairly easily.
 
Update #2:

I took the belt off and started the car. Of course I forgot to turn the gas valve on, so it stalled in a short amount of time, but I should have enough video to show. I also connected the generator to the charger to get it to spin to look at that, and the final video is me playing with the fan, which does seem a little wobbly on the water pump shaft.

I noticed that some coolant came out around two of the head bolts and some dripping down the front of the engine (pics attached). I thought I sprayed that head gasket liberally with the copper gasket spray, but maybe I missed a couple of spots?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n9CFaFXxPNGBiTqt9IrNtL5S7LaQXi3U/view?usp=drive_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cbvOUolnuj05rXkyvHKLu6k58h-N8s_J/view?usp=drive_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MjF1ktZ2aTa8rsPi8RDzjL4HE14P0ofP/view?usp=drive_link
 

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The head and block should be flat and fit each other within 0.002 inch. One way to test this is to put Plastigauge on top of the block in various places and then bolt the head down without a gasket. There should be no pits or scratches. You can fill the pits and scratches with JB Weld and sand it flat with 240 grit paper wrapped around a flat file. The block and head should be meticulously clean with a final wipe with acetone. I found the Best brand graphite gasket with the copper spray to work the best.

Try tightening the nut at the front of the water pump. If that does not work, the taper in the fan and the taper on the shaft do not match and either a new fan or shaft or both are needed.
 
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