Out of ideas and knowledge

E

Eddie Morgan

Member
Long-winded post so bear with me. First, to clear the air --- it has been "suggested" that I'm just throwing parts at the car (1953 Merc' Custom) to solve a problem. NOT TRUE. When I got the car, I changed out routine maintenance parts ... tune-up parts, etc. Some of the parts I believe were as old as the car.
Now to my problem, and what I've checked:
All grounds are clean and tight. Battery is new 6V 575CCA
All battery/starter cables are 00
Had starter checked -- armature fried, replaced starter with new, not rebuild

With a full charged battery, it might start ... or not. Second attempt, etc it acts like the battery is dead. I need help !!! I don't know where to check now.
With plugs out, engine turns over .......... compression check shows 95psi all cylinders .... got gas, got spark. Something funky with the starter?
 
Take it to your friendly auto electric shop and have them do a thorough diagnosis. You say it might or might not start. Do you know why it didn't start? How long are you cranking before it starts? A shop or dealership should be equipped to find an answer.
 
hi Eddie, just curious if you have cleaned the cable terminals on the Solenoid ?
And/Or, maybe the starter solenoid needs replacing...;)





.
 
I would get a 850 cca battery, no paint on starter face and no paint on bell housing for good ground.
 
This is what you need to do. You need to do a "voltage drop test" This is done while you are trying to crank the starter. I tell people to do this on their electrical problems and they "never" come back saying they tried it. This how an automotive electrical shop or good mechanic finds these problems. It's fast and easy.

The electricity is "exactly like water in a pipe. Voltage is the pressure and amperage is the amount of flow. If you had a blockage in your water system, you would have high pressure (voltage) above the blockage and zero or low pressure after the blockage. We can check for that blockage with a voltmeter. If you put the meters leads on both sides of the blockage while cranking the voltage will look for a way around the blockage through the meter. A zero volt reading would mean there is no blockage a voltage reading more than .2 of a volt means there is a blockage. You start at the battery, put one probe on the center battery post and one on the cable and try to crank the engine. If you saw 4 volts you would know you have a bad connection at the battery post, Then you move the probes to each end of the battery cable and crank the engine. If you see 2V you have resistance in the cable. You keep doing this across every cable, connection and device until you find the resistance. Just because you have new parts doesn't mean they are good. Ever see the manufacturer forget to strip the insulation off a battery cable before they crimped on the end. I worked with a Ford dealer mechanic that had that happen on a new car and nobody could figure out why it started sometimes and other times it did not. A voltage drop test across that new cable found the problem. Watch this video and others. This is how your going to find your problem without guessing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXENKujYtc
 
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Define "new starter". Around these vintage cars, I am always afraid of NEW anything. Especially with so much good, NOS and usable or rebuilt genuine fords parts available. Sort out what you have before throwing money around.
Helpful hint- a worn out Ford part is almost always better than anything new.
 
Hi Eddie


Flathead Fever is correct...that's how you do it properly. Make sure you test battery voltage while cranking... first thing before doing any more tests. New batteries aren't always good batteries.



Terry
 
When it does start is the charging system working? If you charge the battery up slowly overnight will it start the next try? Is it just me or does 575 CCA seem a little low for 6 volt? Just asking. Volt drop test sounds like good idea.
 
Flathead is absolutely right. You can get a voltmeter cheap but watch out for the ones that are so cheap they are sometimes used as giveaways. You will find the problem, guaranteed.
 
swedishsteel said:
Does it run smooth when it starts? Could have plug wires on wrong plugs and out of time, fighting itself. Just a thought
Click to expand...

When it starts, it's smooth and quiet. If it doesn't start, I hit the button again and it sounds like the battery is almost dead. All my grounds are clean and tight.
 
Lanny said:
hi Eddie, just curious if you have cleaned the cable terminals on the Solenoid ?
And/Or, maybe the starter solenoid needs replacing...;)




Hi Lanny !!! I have new cables 00 ... it's all clean and tight. Solenoid is good, checked with multimeter. All ground points have been re-cleaned and tightened.
Click to expand...
 
kurt v said:
I would get a 850 cca battery, no paint on starter face and no paint on bell housing for good ground.
Click to expand...

All surfaces are clean and dry. I'll see if I can find a battery around here. My current battery is new, 575 CCA ...... I've been looking for videos about load testing a 6 volt battery. All I can find are 12 volt videos.
 
Flathead Fever said:
This is what you need to do. You need to do a "voltage drop test" This is done while you are trying to crank the starter. I tell people to do this on their electrical problems and they "never" come back saying they tried it. This how an automotive electrical shop or good mechanic finds these problems. It's fast and easy.

The electricity is "exactly like water in a pipe. Voltage is the pressure and amperage is the amount of flow. If you had a blockage in your water system, you would have high pressure (voltage) above the blockage and zero or low pressure after the blockage. We can check for that blockage with a voltmeter. If you put the meters leads on both sides of the blockage while cranking the voltage will look for a way around the blockage through the meter. A zero volt reading would mean there is no blockage a voltage reading more than .2 of a volt means there is a blockage. You start at the battery, put one probe on the center battery post and one on the cable and try to crank the engine. If you saw 4 volts you would know you have a bad connection at the battery post, Then you move the probes to each end of the battery cable and crank the engine. If you see 2V you have resistance in the cable. You keep doing this across every cable, connection and device until you find the resistance. Just because you have new parts doesn't mean they are good. Ever see the manufacturer forget to strip the insulation off a battery cable before they crimped on the end. I worked with a Ford dealer mechanic that had that happen on a new car and nobody could figure out why it started sometimes and other times it did not. A voltage drop test across that new cable found the problem. Watch this video and others. This is how your going to find your problem without guessing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXENKujYtc
Click to expand...

Good analogy. I'll get my multimeter and start climbing around the car. LOL
 
Floyd said:
Define "new starter". Around these vintage cars, I am always afraid of NEW anything. Especially with so much good, NOS and usable or rebuilt genuine fords parts available. Sort out what you have before throwing money around.
Helpful hint- a worn out Ford part is almost always better than anything new.
Click to expand...

I had my old starter tested and it was determined the armature was "fried". I got a new starter (boxed with warranty) from ThirdGen Auto, checked it before climbing under the car !! All cables are new, grounds clean and tight. I checked the solenoid and it showed good. Everything else I've changed are routine maintenance parts, plugs, points, etc.
 
Besides the ground cable from the battery, what other ground cables do you have on the car?
 
5851a said:
When it does start is the charging system working? If you charge the battery up slowly overnight will it start the next try? Is it just me or does 575 CCA seem a little low for 6 volt? Just asking. Volt drop test sounds like good idea.
Click to expand...

One of the replies here mentioned getting an 850 CCA battery. I have no idea where to find such an animal around here.

As for the battery, a full charge may or may not crank it. It's a craps shoot ... I've cleaned the dash ground etc for the start button (all ground points in engine compartment.) I'm frustrated because I have no real knowledge of electrical systems .... I'm learning as I go.
 
Eddie Morgan said:
One of the replies here mentioned getting an 850 CCA battery. I have no idea where to find such an animal around here.

.....
Click to expand...

I believe an Optima AGM battery is 850 CCA. They are kinda spendy (around $250), but each of the last three I have used lasted over 12 years.

I got the last two from Amazon. They're kinda weird looking, but that can be remedied by a special case and top cover specifically made for this purpose.
 
Eddie Morgan said:
Lanny said:
hi Eddie, just curious if you have cleaned the cable terminals on the Solenoid ?
And/Or, maybe the starter solenoid needs replacing...;)




Hi Lanny !!! I have new cables 00 ... it's all clean and tight. Solenoid is good, checked with multimeter. All ground points have been re-cleaned and tightened.
Click to expand...

If checked with a multimeter means you checked the resistance of the cables with an ohm meter that won't work on a starter system. The meter uses a very tiny amount of current to test for resistance. That's fine if you are measuring a ballast resister but on a large battery cable with resistance it's going to show zero ohms of resistance because the large cables will easily flow the small amount of current from the meter, but that same resistance will cutdown the flow of 300 amps. The only way to check a starting circuit is with a voltage drop test. You have probably heard of ohms law. Voltage divided by resistance equals amperage. Voltage divided by amperage equals resistance and amperage multiplied by resistance equals voltage. Example; six-volts divided by the 300 amps of a cranking starter equals .02 ohms resistance. Put just 2 ohms of resistance in that cable, six-volts divided by 2 ohms give you just 3 amps available to operate the starter. You cannot check for resistance with an ohm meter on high amperage circuits. It must be done with a voltmeter while the circuit is in operation.

The other test we have not mentioned is how many amps the starter is drawing. If the engine or starter is hard to turn the amperage will go way up. If it's not cranking and the amperage is high the engine is tight, or the starter has a physical resistance. If it will not crank and the amperage is low it's from low voltage or the electrical parts of the starter or faulty.
Click to expand...
 
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