1959 Mercury Monterey 312 2v First Start

[Stephenorf]

OK, it has taken me a while to get some things figured out here. To get to this point:

Had the fuel tank professionally cleaned out & recoated
Drained all the bad fuel (over 10 years old)
Flushed out all the fuel lines
Added a hard line between the fuel pump and the carb
Replaced old fuel pump
Replaced small inline filter at carb
Replaced points with Pertronix Ignitor II solid state ignition module
Replaced old coil with Pertroninx Ignitor II Coil
Added requisite relay to feed the Pertoninx equipment full 12 volts

The car still wouldn't start. Or more specifically, it sounded like it was trying to start, but when I released the key to the "on" position it would not run.

Sure enough, I disconnected the starter from the solenoid, and then had a helper turn the key to start while I checked the voltage to to coil. In "Start", the coil was getting 12v, but in run, the coil was getting 0 volts. Hmm...where to run the coil wire so it gets voltage in both the "Run" and the "Start" position.

I did some testing, and found a wire that had 0 volts with the key off, and 12v with the key in the "On" and "Start" position. Once I rewired the relay, I was happily rewarded with the car starting and running. Whoopee!

Oh, but here's the catch. Turning the key to the "off" position doesn’t kill the engine. It seems once the car is started the wire stays hot. I can put a towel over the carb to kill the engine, and with the key in the "off" position the wire is dead.

Grr...at least I can start the car. The motor sounds pretty good. No knocking or funny noises. The transmission shifts into reverse and forward gears. I just cannot kill the motor with the key. I hope it isn't a bad ignition switch. But with all the spliced wires and hoonaganism under the hood, I'm guessing I just need to find the correct wire.

Comments and suggestions welcome!

 

[dmsfrr]

You've crossed a couple ignition system wires to run the Pertronix setup.
Re-read and double check the wiring instructions they provided.
They have a Tech Support phone number. https://pertronixbrands.com/pages/contact-us

With the Pertronix modules I've seen the ballast resistor is removed / bypassed, and the power wire coming from the "I" terminal of the starter solenoid is disconnected.

After the last one failed (in the middle of a left turn, with an oncoming dump truck) I won't put an aftermarket ignition conversion kit on my old cars.
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[Stephenorf]

You've crossed a couple ignition system wires to run the Pertronix setup.
Re-read and double check the wiring instructions they provided.
They have a Tech Support phone number.

OK, I think I have the wiring concept down. The problem is the PO cut and spliced wires and I'm being challenged with finding the correct feed to the relay so that the coil has power only in the "Run" and "Start" position.

With the Pertronix modules I've seen the ballast resistor is removed / bypassed, and the power wire coming from the "I" terminal of the starter solenoid is disconnected.

Correct, the ballast resistor has been removed and the wire coming from the "I" terminal goes nowhere.

I'm going to do some more troubleshooting. I need to find a switched wire that's hot in the ":Run" and "Start" position, but turns off when the key is turned to the "Stop" position.

So far I tried (for the signal wire to the relay):

Using the wire from the "I" terminal on the solenoid, but that wire only provides power when the key is in the "Start" position.

Using the wire that ran to the ballast resistor. But this wire stays hot even after the ignition switch is turned to the "Off" position.

Next up is the cut wire with the green box around it in the pic below. It is hot in the "Run" and "On" position. I just hope it is dead in the "Off" position.

 

[Stephenorf]

ok, so something is definitley screwy here. All the ignition wires (the 'feed' wires from the ignition switch to the solenoid / ballast resistor) are dead when the engine is not running and the key is in the "Off" position.

Once I start the car, both the ignition 'feed' wires stay hot and the car stays running even after the key is on the "Stop" position. But as soon as I kill the engine, the same 'feed' wires are not hot anymore.

Not sure what to make of that. I'm thinking I could wire a "kill" switch into one of the feed wires to stop the motor from firing. I don't really want to do that though.

And BTW...all that stuff I did to try to get the motor running in the first place was probably not exactly needed. The wire the PO had going to the coil only had power when the key was in the "Start" position. Of course I couldn't get the engine to run. Grr...

 

[KULTULZ]

The problem is the PO cut and spliced wires and I'm being challenged with finding the correct feed to the relay so that the coil has power only in the "Run" and "Start" position.

This where a WIRING DIAGRAM comes in handy ...

 

[dmsfrr]

OK, I think I have the wiring concept down. The problem is the PO cut and spliced wires and I'm being challenged with finding the correct feed to the relay so that the coil has power only in the "Run" and "Start" position.
. . .

The original wire from the 'Run' position of the ignition switch to the + terminal of the ignition coil is Red with a green stripe. This wire would have been connected from the ignition switch to one terminal of the ballast resistor, the other resistor terminal would have been connected to the + terminal of the ignition coil.
I've not yet checked to confirm if the Red/green wire is also On when the key is in the Start position.

My statement in post #2 about the "I" wire from the starter solenoid being disconnected for a Pertronix setup may have been incorrect... it could provide power to the module when the key in the Start position, IF the Red/green 'Ignition' wire is not normally On with the key in the Start position.

(EDIT, 3 hrs later) curiosity finally got me. I checked the Ignition key switch in the '57 dashboard here and the Ignition/coil/run terminal on the key switch does stay On when the key is in the Start position.

This where a WIRING DIAGRAM comes in handy ...

1959 Ford V8 wiring diagram at this link...
http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Ford/MWire5765-200.jpg

Don't be confused by the dual distributors in the diagram, there were optional V8 engines and both distributors are shown.

.

 

[Stephenorf]

The original wire from the 'Run' position of the ignition switch to the + terminal of the ignition coil is Red with a green stripe. This wire would have been connected from the ignition switch to one terminal of the ballast resistor, the other resistor terminal would have been connected to the + terminal of the ignition coil.
I've not yet checked to confirm if the Red/green wire is also On when the key is in the Start position.

Awesome info. So I have the red/green wire that goes to the ballast resistor.(this wire was terminated at the ballast resistor when I bought the car. One end was plugged into the ballast resistor, but the other end of the ballast resistor wasn't connected to anything.) When I test this wire with the volt meter, it shows 0 volts when the key is off and the motor is not running, and a full 12 volts on run and in start. The problem is it still shows a full 12 volts even after I turn the key to the off position. Same with the red/blue wire. No volts when the car is not running and the key is on the off position, and a full 12 volts in run and start, but then it continues to have 12 volts when the key is turned to the stop position....just like the red/green wire.

But once the engine is stopped (I choke the motor out by putting a towel over the carb), those wire have 0 volts.

Bad switch, or could that be something else. Like why would I get 12v with the key in the off position with the engine running, and then get 0 volts in the same position with the engine not running? Seems like the switch is being bypassed somehow whenever the generator is running.

 

[Stephenorf]

My statement in post #2 about the "I" wire from the starter solenoid being disconnected for a Pertronix setup may have been incorrect... it could provide power to the module when the key in the Start position, IF the Red/green 'Ignition' wire is not normally On with the key in the Start position.

Yes, the “I” wire from the starter only has voltage when the key is in the "start" position. In the "on" position there are 0 volts. I did not realize this until I had done lots of work ensuring I was getting adequate fuel and ignition.

(EDIT, 3 hrs later) curiosity finally got me. I checked the Ignition key switch in the '57 dashboard here and the Ignition/coil/run terminal on the key switch does stay On when the key is in the Start position.

Interesting. On the ignition switch, I assume "S" is for Start and "A" is for accessory, but I'm not sure what the "B" terminal or the the "C" terminal in the diagram represent in relation to the key position.

 

[Stephenorf]

1959 Ford V8 wiring diagram at this link...
http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Ford/MWire5765-200.jpg

Don't be confused by the dual distributors in the diagram, there were optional V8 engines and both distributors are shown.

.

Thank you. This helps a lot.

So did the + side of the coil get 2 wires from the factory? One for start (red/blue - from the solenoid), and the other for run (red/green - via the ballast resistor)?

 

[dmsfrr]

Thank you. This helps a lot.

So did the + side of the coil get 2 wires from the factory? One for start (red/blue - from the solenoid), and the other for run (red/green - via the ballast resistor)?

Glad I could help, you're welcome.
The Red/blue "Start" wire from the ignition switch goes thru the neutral safety switch (on automatic transmission cars) to the "S" position on the starter solenoid, to trigger the solenoid. .diagram 1

The '59 wiring diagram linked above does show 2 wires on the Plus terminal of the ignition coil.
The second one is the "I" wire from the starter solenoid. It provides a full 12v to the coil for more spark during starting (only). .diagram 2

Depending on who wired the car last, it is possible to have the "I" wire piggybacked onto the ignition coil side of the ballast resistor. Electrically it's the same. .diagram 3
.

 

[dmsfrr]

.....
Bad switch, or could that be something else. Like why would I get 12v with the key in the off position with the engine running, and then get 0 volts in the same position with the engine not running? Seems like the switch is being bypassed somehow whenever the generator is running.

I suspect you have a bad ignition switch or some creative crossed wires / rewiring done by a previous owner.

So did the + side of the coil get 2 wires from the factory? One for start (red/blue - from the solenoid), and the other for run (red/green - via the ballast resistor)?

IF, the Red/blue Start wire for the solenoid is connected to the Plus side of the coil I'm not sure what is triggering the starter solenoid so it can switch on the starter. More creative wiring by a previous owner?

... On the ignition switch, I assume "S" is for Start and "A" is for accessory, but I'm not sure what the "B" terminal or the the "C" terminal in the diagram represent in relation to the key position.

Yes, "A" is for Accessory, all the misc items on the car that use key switched power.

"B" is the Battery connection, sometimes from the large starter solenoid terminal where the + Plus battery cable is connected. Or piggybacked from the 'Battery' terminal of the headlight switch.

"C" is the Coil connection. It goes to the ballast resistor for the Ignition Coil, a Red/green wire.
Also for the Oil & Gen idiot lights, a Black/green wire.

 

[Stephenorf]

Glad I could help, you're welcome.
The Red/blue "Start" wire from the ignition switch goes thru the neutral safety switch (on automatic transmission cars) to the "S" position on the starter solenoid, to trigger the solenoid. .diagram 1

The '59 wiring diagram linked above does show 2 wires on the Plus terminal of the ignition coil.
The second one is the "I" wire from the starter solenoid. It provides a full 12v to the coil for more spark during starting (only). .diagram 2

Depending on who wired the car last, it is possible to have the "I" wire piggybacked onto the ignition coil side of the ballast resistor. Electrically it's the same. .diagram 3
.

Thanks for those wiring diagrams. My car was wired like this when I got it. I did not realize that the power from the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid only gave power to the coil when the key was in the "Start" position. So all my fiddling trying to get the motor to start was never going to work until I supplied a "run" voltage to the coil. See diagram below for the way the PO had the ignition wired.

As you can see, the wire to the ballast resistor terminated at the ballast resistor. I actually mentioned this in an earlier post, as I thought it was odd, but no one mentioned that the "run" circuit needed the wire from the ballast resistor to go to the + side of the coil. Anyway, wired like this the car seemed to want to start, but I could never get it to actually start. LOL....when I released the key in the ignition to the run position it would just die. Duh...hidsight is always 20/20.

So now, I have the ignition wired through a relay like this:

The "trigger" wire is the one that used to feed through the ballast resistor. The voltage is coming from the battery side of the starter solenoid. The car starts and runs, but won't shut off with the key.

At first I was thinking there was some feed from the generator since when the engine is running, it has constant voltage (even with the key in the off position), but when engine is not running, the same wire has no voltage with the key in the off position.

But now I'm more inclined to think that adding the relay is the root cause for the ignition wire to be hot when the key is off and the engine is running.

So if the relay is staying in the "On" position, feeding voltage from the battery to the + side of the coil, would that voltage be feeding the rest of the circuit, causing a constant 12v feed to the entire system? I'm talking myself into thinking this is the most likely scenarion. Thoughts?

 

[KULTULZ]

Was the RELAY KIT purchased from PERTRONIX and did it come with detailed instructions?

RED/GREEN will be the TRIGGER WIRE to the RELAY.

It should be hot at START/RUN or ON. With the PERTRONIX I, if the key was left ON (engine off) (like listening to the radio) it would burn the MODULE.

RED/BLUE with go to the S TERMINAL on the STARTER SOLENOID.

 

[Stephenorf]

Was the RELAY KIT purchased from PERTRONIX an did it come with detailed instructions?

Oh, read the directions? And all of the directions...sheesh....this was on page 2. Seems I need an "isolation" diode to prevent power from the generator from flowing back to the relay.

Now I just need to figure out what diode I need to complete the job.

When all else fails, read the instruction....

{{UPDATE}} - I see there are relays with built-in diodes. I purchased a couple and they should be here by the end of the week. I'm pretyy ocnfident that this is the source of the problem (power flow-back). I'll update once I connect the new relay and use the ignition key to shut the engine off. Fingers crossed...

 

[KULTULZ]

I am still wondering (as if that is something new).

Did you buy the specific relay kit from PERTRONIX or from another vendor? It seems to me their relay would have the diode.

Did the instructions say anything about adding a fuse or circuit breaker to the BATT SUPPLY to the relay?

Can you give the source and PN of the relay when it comes in?

PERTRONIX is a great product (IMO) but leaves much to desire with their instructions and listings. Most likely a source of so many system failures.

 

[Stephenorf]

I am still wondering (as if that is something new).

Did you buy the specific relay kit from PERTRONIX or from another vendor? It seems to me their relay would have the diode.

Did the instructions say anything about adding a fuse or circuit breaker to the BATT SUPPLY to the relay?

Can you give the source and PN of the relay when it comes in?

PERTRONIX is a great product (IMO) but leaves much to desire with their instructions and listings. Most likely a source of so many system failures.

Sure, I bought the relay seperatey (not from pertronix). It seems the pertronix kit does not come with a built-in diode, as the "parts Included" list shows a diode as it's own line item (seperate from the rest of the parts).

Furthermore, the instruction in line number 8 mentions that if the car keeps running when the ignition switch is turned to the "off" position, a diode is neccessary. And the instruction in line #9 detail the "Isolation Diode Instruction".

Anyway, the relay with a built in diode (12v, 30A) is only a few dollars. Once i get it and plug it in and test it I'll update the forum with success/failure.

Here's the parts list from Pertronics relay.

Also, there's no mention of in inline fuse. Of course, I added one to the power side of my install....just to be safe. The last thing I want is a fire under the hood or in the dash caused by a uncontrolled and sustained electical surge.

 

[Stephenorf]

Here's a video of the 2nd time I started the car. Still not super-familiar with the engine, so I am still a little "clumsy" in this video.

Starting Car

Here's the sweet sound of the 292 from the rear of the car...doesn't sound bad!

Exhaust Notes

 

[dmsfrr]

Sounds good to me!

 

[Anteek29]

Sounds healthy...smooth!