a 400 on BAT went for 22k
- Thread starter ronn
- Start date
updraught
Well-known member
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1931-ford-model-a-53/
Should have left it RHD.
Should have left it RHD.
1931 flamingo
Well-known member
Lots not factory BUT still a bargain IMO also.
Paul in CT
Paul in CT
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Ronn, help me out on the evaluation number please. As I understand it, a #1 is basically a concours-level automobile. A #6 is a parts car and a #5 is a complete and restorable vehicle. A #3 car is typically a 'Good' condition vehicle with a well-done amateur restoration. A #4 car similar to a #3 except it is one with a poor-quality amateur restoration. Based on the pictures I looked at, this vehicle is a #4 level vehicle 'at best'! I will list the items that I feel lowers it to that level, ...and you tell me what makes this a decent level restoration worthy to be considered a #3 level.
The paint has issues, no pinstriping, and is an unauthentic color. The interior appears to be vinyl in places (-instead of dark grained leather), the incorrect color material & pattern, foam was used instead of cotton, the ash trays appear to be missing, the interior trim (window trim, garnish mouldings, belt rail panel, etc.) are painted and not Walnut woodgrained, the top irons are not correctly plated/painted, W/S Frame not chrome plated, ...and that list goes on in there.
The engine compartment is full of repro pieces that do not even begin to look authentic. Items like incorrect generator & cut-out, carburetor, fan, coil, etc. all detract from a well-done restoration ...and the proper parts could have easily been used yp raise the quality. FWIW, the bit about it having an Argentina-rebuilt engine wouldn't thrill me either!!
Then factor in the undercarriage where it has an incorrect rear end assembly, incorrect front brakes, brake rod return springs are incorrectly installed, look at the battery support carrier tray, the missing motor mount safety wires, the broken fender bracket, the shock links, and more.
So if these are the items that we can see from pictures, shall we take a guess as to the quality of the wood, and the other items? Does the (incorrect) wiper work, the horn work, the shocks work, is the transmission noisy, -and so on. It is my opinion this car brought VERY strong money. If I am incorrect, y'all help me out where I am wrong, but very likely in my mind this new buyer will be spending a bit more on it in the future.
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BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Ummmm, maybe that it is incorrect in color, pattern, and cheaply done. I think I addressed some of it in my post above. Did you see the escutcheons? Did you read the part about the window regulator not working well? Do you suppose that is because they are worn out and will require servicing in the future??
OK Brent- I bow down............lol
A #3 to me is a nice driver, and that is what this car is to me. With the high end restorations you do daily, I guess you are not in my world.
I frequent local car shows often and rarely see anything over a #2 car. A #4 car to me just about runs and needs some major work. eye of the beholder I guess and which judging standards are being used.
Most cars today done in fine shops like yours, are in my opinion- over restored. Not saying that is a bad thing.For example, dont think Henrys paint jobs were even close to todays standards.
A #3 to me is a nice driver, and that is what this car is to me. With the high end restorations you do daily, I guess you are not in my world.
I frequent local car shows often and rarely see anything over a #2 car. A #4 car to me just about runs and needs some major work. eye of the beholder I guess and which judging standards are being used.
Most cars today done in fine shops like yours, are in my opinion- over restored. Not saying that is a bad thing.For example, dont think Henrys paint jobs were even close to todays standards.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Well I appreciate the compliment on the other, ....or I think I do!
Honestly, I think the car probably brought a little more than it is worth. Maybe if I could have test driven it, my mind might have changed a little but I suspect it was a poor restoration where it is going to need another $5k worth of parts and a 100+ hours of "fixin' stuff". Then, add to the price of a rebuilt engine that you can trust, and I think when you add-in another $5k-$10k to the above mentioned stuff, you find you are approaching a total investment of $30k-$40k. You still have a car with failing paint and a cheap interior. I think $35k-$40k would buy a really nice Convertible Sedan in the #3, -or even #2 condition.
As for prices of Model-As rising, ...I think it is the nicer cars that have a quality restoration (-not necessarily a pro resto but a nice & thorough amateur resto) are the ones that are on the rise. Too much junk out there just like this car we are speaking about that people have started to realize that once they buy it it still needs lots of work to be reliable.
yes, it is a compliment and I appreciate your words of wisdom more then you know-
on the other hand, a total wreck of an A400 in a heap on the floor brings a low of say 15k and so that is how I derive my pricing. so many guys on here start with, it needs x amount to fix this and x amount to fix that............. that to me is not a fair evaluation, unless you are always looking at having a top end car.
most on this board drive a so so nice driver, very few are at fine points level. I agree- A HUGE difference. Not saying there isnt merit to buying a little better car for say 40k, but not everyone on this board has or is willing to drop 40k or 60k etc for a model A.
I personally draw a limit, whether I can afford it or not. At 60k, I am looking at Mercers.............
on the other hand, a total wreck of an A400 in a heap on the floor brings a low of say 15k and so that is how I derive my pricing. so many guys on here start with, it needs x amount to fix this and x amount to fix that............. that to me is not a fair evaluation, unless you are always looking at having a top end car.
most on this board drive a so so nice driver, very few are at fine points level. I agree- A HUGE difference. Not saying there isnt merit to buying a little better car for say 40k, but not everyone on this board has or is willing to drop 40k or 60k etc for a model A.
I personally draw a limit, whether I can afford it or not. At 60k, I am looking at Mercers.............
Oldbluoval
Well-known member
MAYBE....one could use it as a fun driver ...if it runs well.
If that’s the goal then it’s not a bad deal. If one really wants a decent 400, Brent has hit it in the missing parts.
I think one could find a nice slant fordor or
Similar for that kind of money.
If a goal is to one day make a NICE 400 they should expect to spend a lot of
Money undoing and finding missing parts
If that’s the goal then it’s not a bad deal. If one really wants a decent 400, Brent has hit it in the missing parts.
I think one could find a nice slant fordor or
Similar for that kind of money.
If a goal is to one day make a NICE 400 they should expect to spend a lot of
Money undoing and finding missing parts
1931 flamingo
Well-known member
Whatever, it's still an A-400..................
Paul in CT
Paul in CT
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Let me reiterate something and then ask for an opinion.
If the engine was rebuilt using potentially questionable techniques/materials from 40 years ago, -and the transmission & rear end were last inspected/repaired 40 years ago in Argentina, would it be a safe bet to say that it is highly probable that the engine does not have good valves, pistons, a H/C head, or anything other than a (used) stock camshaft.
What is the probability when the car was converted to LHD that the restorer used new or NORS transmission gears and bearings in the transmission? The same applies for the rear end when it was installed (40 years ago??). What about the condition of the steering or brakes??
So with the above said, what is real world expectation with this car? Is there an expectation that you as the new owner will be able to jump in 'as-is' and drive on the next tour, --or is there an expectation it will need to have work done to make it safe & reliable. If so, -what would you feel would need to be done and what would those associated costs be??
CHuDWah
Well-known member
Well since you asked, this may not answer the question but it is an opinion.
Your critique of the car seems to involve two issues, safety/reliability versus authenticity that doesn't affect the first issue. Authenticity may or may not concern a buyer. But safety and reliability should. Thing is, any old car is a crap-shoot. You can get an idea of condition by inspecting/driving it, but you can't be certain without tearing down the components you mention, as well as others. If you're going to do that, you may as well bite the bullet and restore the car correctly. IOW, hope for the best but expect the worst.
How all that affects value depends on variables specific to the car. As others have mentioned, this one is an A-400. Bottom line, a car is "worth" what a buyer will pay and a seller will accept. Apparently this one is worth $22K.
Ed in Maine
Well-known member
You buy what you like and what you can afford. Don't expect to make money on it, expect to have a whole lot of fun with it. When it is all over, you can say you owed an A400 and that is not what most of us will be able to say! Just my take, Ed
yep an A 400
seems some of us missed that point..........
all I was really implying. one of my all time favorite body styles and so few of them left- too boot!
Maybe the topic should be changed to- how many of us on this board drive over 100 miles a year in one of our cars?
that might be a more interesting topic.
seems some of us missed that point..........
all I was really implying. one of my all time favorite body styles and so few of them left- too boot!
Maybe the topic should be changed to- how many of us on this board drive over 100 miles a year in one of our cars?
that might be a more interesting topic.
would love to see a survey on this board of how many people drive their car 100 miles a year
500 miles a yr
1000 miles a yr and over 3000 miles a yr.
would really provide a lot of info on what "quality" of cars we tend to drive.
or maybe is your car a #1 #2 #3 or a parts car? (exaggeration is in order)
500 miles a yr
1000 miles a yr and over 3000 miles a yr.
would really provide a lot of info on what "quality" of cars we tend to drive.
or maybe is your car a #1 #2 #3 or a parts car? (exaggeration is in order)
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
I think part of what you are saying is spot-on, ...and I also feel there are many (about 400 as of now) that are reading this trying to learn, so there is value in us discussing this topic.
So often I have talk with potential customers, and new customers about this same thing. Often they made a purchase without considering many of the things we have discussed above, and after purchase they unfortunately find themselves forced into spending more money because the car was not what they thought they were buying. It doesn't need to be this way IMO. Unfortunately, just because someone paid a certain price for a vehicle does not mean it is worth that amount. I think more often than not, the buyer makes the purchase based on what they think they are getting instead of what they are actually receiving.
As for the authenticity part of my post, part of what increases the value of 'restored' car is the appearance of being authentic. The opposite of that also holds true with values.
As for the 'crap shoot', your point is valid however the experienced Model-A mechanic should know enough about what (s)he is looking at & listening to during the test drive to make a great assessment of that vehicle's condition. Most of us here are experienced well enough with a Model-A that we can tell an engine's condition by listening to the starter spinning, by listening for bearing noises, listening for exhaust leaks, looking at the oil fill tube for blow-by, and watching the crankshaft pulley spin. A quick drive around the block shifting gears noting how loose the shift lever is, listening for gears growling, and checking for jumping out of gear on quick deceleration. The same for steering. Just because they claim it has new spindle bolts does not mean they were installed correctly. Turning the steering wheel while driving slowly tells us much about the condition of the gearbox and linkages. Shaking the front wheels tells me much about the steering arms, spindles, and bearings. By doing this, most experienced Model-A restorers can take most of the 'crap-shoot' portion out of the buying experience IMO.
So bringing this full circle, if any of us participating in this thread would have accompanied the Buyer to inspect that vehicle, -and if we had shared with them exactly (-i.e.: only) what we have discussed in this post, do you feel they still would have made the purchase for the same amount it sold for, ...or would they have possibly bid a lesser amount? My vote is the latter. So often people get caught up in the vehicle's 'shine', or because they like the bodystyle, ...and they just let their emotions set the price of the car for them. That is why I feel it is so important for a novice buyer to have a well qualified Model-A mechanic there to do the evaluation and the inspection with them.