Are brake floaters worth it?
- Thread starter freak
- Start date
Jack Shaft
BANNED
the spring has to be removed to allow it to 'cam' in.. got to admit, the front brake modification was genius.. the rear is not as effective.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Colin, it has been made many times before on here. My point is, -part of the brake pedal pressure needed in stopping is to over come the tension of the springs on each corner's braking system. Remove some of these springs and it requires less pedal pressure to push the shoes towards the drum. That really has nothing to do with the 'kit'. So, saying because of his brake kit, it now requires less pedal pressure is not really accurate is it? In other words, I can use the same brake pedal pressure on a stock braking system with springs removed and achieve the same results
The next term that is so often over-used is this thing called centering. Ford never used a gage going down the line to make sure each set of shoes was centered. The biggest issue is people use band-aids to cover up boo-boos. Ever since I started installing roller tracks that are the same OE dimension, -AND in the same location as when Ford's assembly workers installed them, I have not needed to even check if the shoes are centered, ..because every time I do check, they are. Ford specified on the print "Locate accurately to this dimension." ...and he gave a tolerance of just a few thousandth for it to be located. From my experience, the Brake Housing Plate mounting holes along with the shanks of the Rivets and the holes in the Brake Shoe Centering Bracket can all add up to installation somewhere around in the 0.040" - 0.050" out of the proper location. This is why Ford did not allow the mechanics in the Agencies to replace the centering brackets. Unless you have a fixture to jig it off of, in all likelihood you will be wrong when you install it.
To tell the truth, I could not tell if the springs were removed or not when stepping on the pedal when the car is standing still.
It is only when the car is moving and the brakes are applied that the self-energizing brakes feel softer. I believe it has to do with the shoes being pulled into the drums and you don't have to apply as much pressure to the pedal.
It is hard to explain but they do feel like power assist brakes on later cars (to a lesser degree).
nkaminar
Well-known member
Brent, the spring force is small compared to the pressure to force the shoes against the drums. The real reason that less pedal pressure is needed is because the friction is helping to force the shoes against the drums. You will have to do a free body diagram of the shoes with all the forces involved to understand how this works. One way to demonstrate this to yourself if to take a pencil and push it against a table with the eraser facing forward. As your increase the angle the force required to move the pencil increases with very little downward effort required on your part. At some angle you will not be able to move the pencil forward. That would be too much self actuating.
Jack Shaft
BANNED
Brent Terry understands the concept of self energizing brakes. He also knows how to make the stock centered brakes function as well as they can. Many folks on here are satisfied with the stock braking system.Anyone who has driven a car with properly installed floaters on properly maintained brake foundations realize the benefit of what Ted engineered.I run mechanical brakes on a car with double the power of stock with modern radials on 16"wheels. The added benefits of self energizing brakes is welcome.
buckwild 27
Junior Member
They work good on my coupe.
Conaway2
Well-known member
I installed a set of brake floaters on the front brakes years ago. They did work, but the stock front brake tracks were worn and new parts were not available then, so the floaters were an improvement. However, when I properly rebuilt the brakes a few years later, I removed the floaters and am quite happy with the stock brakes, which work very well.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
There is one little issue that you are overlooking. On the floater area where the wedge pushes downward against the rollers, there is room for the floater to move laterally ....to a certain extent however the Wedge Stud still creates a positive stop (for the Wedge) where the shoes cannot rotate any further. When that happens, the wedge pushing downward no longer has any rotational advantage to provide what some are calling "self-energizing", so any mechanical/frictional advantage ceases.
Just a FWIW, my dad and several others tried something where they used an original Adjusting Wedge and used a hacksaw to cut and remove the wedge area. They just put that loose wedge inside the housing and re-installed the cap. The adjuster shaft was used to set the shoe clearance. This was done back in the 1970s, way before the FH Ted set-up. Instead of the Wedge against rollers, there was a triangle set-up that worked well however the downside is these triangle pivots would go over-center and lock the shoes against the drum if the shoes were not in proper adjustment.
The bottom line in this entire reoccurring debate is what are we/you/me trying to accomplish? Ford designed this car to appeal to Lady drivers. Many of these ladies were petite and lady-like (-not tough construction worker types) so the effort required to operate these vehicles had to be well within their capabilities. These cars were also designed to be driven 60 mph, so the original braking system had to be designed to accommodate a feminine driver's braking capability while also safely stopping from higher speeds. So have we become such 'wimps' now that we don't have the muscles in our right leg to depress the pedal on a stock braking system?
Sure, I am all about upgrades or improvements such as bonded linings or cast drums, but so often we get into the mindset that the original systems (generators, 6v electrical, updraft carbs, steering gearboxes, etc.) MUST all be upgraded if we want reliability and serviceability. From my experience around these cars, many of these things are just not needed to have properly functioning Model-As that will safely and reliably start, stop, and steer, -however it is indeed your car and your money, so make it whatever you want it to be.
As Brent mentioned in post #29 South Gate Brake Specialties Co. 1335 E. Washington L. A. California manufactured some "brake floaters" they called them "Ford Direct Action Brake".
Quote from Brent's post:
"Instead of the Wedge against rollers, there was a triangle set-up that worked well however the downside is these triangle pivots would go over-center and lock the shoes against the drum if the shoes were not in proper adjustment."
unquote
This has to be before July 1st, 1963 because the address on instruction sheet that I have here does not have the 5 ZIP digit code for L. A.
I put a pair on the coupe and yes they worked well.
But as the shoes wore out the triangle floaters would go over center.
Result was a VERY LOUD BANG and the wheel would lock up.
Not a big deal if you were going under 40 MPH but very scary to have one front wheel lockup at 60 like happened to me!
I went back to stock brakes after they locked up several times.
Quote from Brent's post:
"Instead of the Wedge against rollers, there was a triangle set-up that worked well however the downside is these triangle pivots would go over-center and lock the shoes against the drum if the shoes were not in proper adjustment."
unquote
This has to be before July 1st, 1963 because the address on instruction sheet that I have here does not have the 5 ZIP digit code for L. A.
I put a pair on the coupe and yes they worked well.
But as the shoes wore out the triangle floaters would go over center.
Result was a VERY LOUD BANG and the wheel would lock up.
Not a big deal if you were going under 40 MPH but very scary to have one front wheel lockup at 60 like happened to me!
I went back to stock brakes after they locked up several times.
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nkaminar
Well-known member
Brent,
The stock cars worked great. I drove stock Model A's up to this year when I bought my Fordor. I loved my stock roadster which I drove all over California in the 60's and 70's. I drove it to Oregon in freezing rain. But I also love my Fordor which is about twice the normal horsepower with a bottom end to match and the FHT floaters and F 150 steering. Except for the FHT floaters, it came that way. Would I buy a stock car (if I could afford a second car)? You bet. Would I keep it stock? You bet.
Regarding how the FHT floaters work, the floating wedge used for adjustment transfers the rotating force to the other shoe, which would otherwise be stationary at that point. In the stock system one shoe is expanded in the direction of rotation and the other shoe is expanded against the rotation. I am sure you have seen how one shoe wears more than the other.
The stock cars worked great. I drove stock Model A's up to this year when I bought my Fordor. I loved my stock roadster which I drove all over California in the 60's and 70's. I drove it to Oregon in freezing rain. But I also love my Fordor which is about twice the normal horsepower with a bottom end to match and the FHT floaters and F 150 steering. Except for the FHT floaters, it came that way. Would I buy a stock car (if I could afford a second car)? You bet. Would I keep it stock? You bet.
Regarding how the FHT floaters work, the floating wedge used for adjustment transfers the rotating force to the other shoe, which would otherwise be stationary at that point. In the stock system one shoe is expanded in the direction of rotation and the other shoe is expanded against the rotation. I am sure you have seen how one shoe wears more than the other.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Yep, that was them. I can remember as a kid of 7 or 8 y.o. being on tour with the club and a set of them on a Coupe went over center right in the middle of Houston. It just so happened to be in front of a shop (-can't remember if it happened in front of a mechanics shop or whether it was a wrecking yard), but I vividly remember them wheeling out a huge cutting torch from that shop. The club guys had the R/F of the vehicle jacked up and the wheel removed, and the guy with the torch used it to cut a hole in the brake drum large enough to stick a screwdriver thru the hole to pry the wedge upward so they could get the brake drum removed. Fifty-plus years later today, it probably doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but back then it was 'intense' for a kid seeing them take a torch to cut on a restored car!!
nkaminar
Well-known member
Dodge,
You can do that with the stock brakes too. Ford instructions were to have the rear brakes come on first. I think it was a hold over from the Model T, which had only rear wheel brakes, and the thinking at the time. I think the idea was to keep the car going straight. However, with heavy braking much of the weight of the car is thrown forward so that all wheels will lock up at the same time even with more bias in the front.
You can do that with the stock brakes too. Ford instructions were to have the rear brakes come on first. I think it was a hold over from the Model T, which had only rear wheel brakes, and the thinking at the time. I think the idea was to keep the car going straight. However, with heavy braking much of the weight of the car is thrown forward so that all wheels will lock up at the same time even with more bias in the front.
I compared that to the cost of crashing and possibly hurting others or me and my GF or to the $3500 for juice brakes and the $265 was peanuts after that.
Does anyone else have the newest Flathead Ted brake floater kit?
I just installed the right rear and wanted to ensure that I placed the two new silver and gold rectangular adjusters in the correct configuration. The Ted instructions are not very clear nor were his sketch and pictures. I placed them on the right side on the back of the rollers with the hole on top for the cotter pins.
Do they go in the other direction with the offset rectangular face on top?
I just installed the right rear and wanted to ensure that I placed the two new silver and gold rectangular adjusters in the correct configuration. The Ted instructions are not very clear nor were his sketch and pictures. I placed them on the right side on the back of the rollers with the hole on top for the cotter pins.
Do they go in the other direction with the offset rectangular face on top?
Attachments
mercman from oz
Well-known member
Larger picture of this brake backing plate fitted with Ted's Brake Floaters.
Steve's Question - are they fitted correctly?
Y-Blockhead
Well-known member
Steve, you have them installed correctly. They replace the stock roller pins and ride on the roller tracks.
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/...TERING-PINS-TEDS?fromCategory=SearchByKeyword
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/...nts/A_2045_FHT/A-2045-FHT-Pin-Fitting-559.pdf
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freak
Senior Member
I didn't see the choice that way. I saw it as a choice between stock brakes with stock stopping power and modified brakes with possibly enhanced stopping power. I'm not convinced that I need more than stock stopping power.
Thank you! Now off to the left side and fronts looked pretty easy. The video I viewed of the install was for the older kit and it threw me off a bit.