Model A Town Car?

[Chris in WNC]

Here are some more photos of the Model A Town Car from the Lyon Collection in Southern California. My wife worked for Gen. Lyon for over 30 years, so I got access to his fabulous collection many times over the years. Besides the Town Car, he also has a Model A Woodie Station Wagon, and a Model A Roadster Pickup Truck. In the 1980's, Gen. Lyon made a huge purchase of many cars from the Harrah collection.....you can google and get more information, but as I remember it, it was over $30 million dollars worth. He was really after a number of wonderful Duesenbergs and other cars. I have no information of the provenance of this Town Car, but am quite sure it is an original and not a created one......

thanks Terry.
from this angle it looks as it should.
did not think a clone would be in Harrah's collection.

please, everybody, put your LOCATION in your profiles.....

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

thanks Terry.
from this angle it looks like it should.
did not think a clone would be in Harrah's collection.

please, everybody, put your LOCATION in your profiles.....

Chris, in actuality Bill Harrah had many brass-era and orphan cars that were indeed cloned. One example was a very rare Ford Model-K Touring that was converted into an even rarer Roadster during the restoration. Many custom bodies were recreated too on classics and on rare cars. (Think of Jay Leno's garage today) One other example of cloning I remember about is of an early Seldon engine and chassis that was found deserted which had been used as a winch to pull mining cars out of mines. The body and sheetmetal had been removed and it was only a chassis. I remember them saying they replicated the fenders and the body parts in their shops with nothing but pictures to go off of.

During the 60s and 70s, my dad knew several guys that worked in Harrah's shops. In the early 1970s I would listen to those guys tell my dad what they were working in Harrah's shops and how they were doing it. By today's standards, it seems simple to me but back then it was all about hiring artisans and having a thick enough wallet to pay for the talent needed. Back then talent was more prevalent than money to pay for their services on old cars. It seems just the opposite for most restorers today as the available talent to actually restore old cars has seemingly dwindled.

 

[ronn]

as quoted from one of the books written on Bill Harrah..............


gentleman was standing in a restaurant and another fella yelled out- Bill congrats on the "new" Bugatti royal you just bought!


Bills answer was- which one? he owned 2 of the ultra rare of 7 created and bought them within a one week period!


that's money!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TerryH]

Gen. Lyon also bought one of the Royale’s, had it for many years, then sold it to Volkswagen after they purchased Bugatti.

 

[Brad in Germany]

One of the three Town Car that Terry is working on is mine. Since it was hidden in a barn in Denmark in 1987 it was not included in the 1987 article. Some of the owners of Model A Town Cars tend to not want to advertise their ownership. As a general rule I do not share information about other Town Cars unless I have permission from the owners. I know of the whereabouts of most of the know Model A Town Cars. My count is around 25. However a few of those did not start out as Town Cars. Most of the "reproductions" are fairly easily identified by a trained eye. However I know of one that would fool almost everyone.

There has been many changes in ownership since the 1987 article. There is a chance that there may be an update article sometime soon (no promises).

Bob Johnson

Bob: Is this your car by chance? This is a photo from the February 1931 issue of The Ford Times from the UK:

Odd the '28-'29 cowl and cowl lights, yet '30-'31 wheels, fenders, steering wheel(?) and headlights, and no bumpers. .....and not sure what is going on with the driver's compartment roof? Looks like they lowered the windshield height (looking at the top front door hinge) and/or removed that horizontal bar normally above the windshield.

Maybe it is a '29 body on a '30-'31 chassis? Could the body have been shipped from the US and then assembled on the '30 chassis in Denmark?

Brad in Maryand

 

[Chris in WNC]

Chris, in actuality Bill Harrah had many brass-era and orphan cars that were indeed cloned. One example was a very rare Ford Model-K Touring that was converted into an even rarer Roadster during the restoration. Many custom bodies were recreated too on classics and on rare cars. (Think of Jay Leno's garage today) One other example of cloning I remember about is of an early Seldon engine and chassis that was found deserted which had been used as a winch to pull mining cars out of mines. The body and sheetmetal had been removed and it was only a chassis. I remember them saying they replicated the fenders and the body parts in their shops with nothing but pictures to go off of.

Thanks, Brent.
I spent a day at Harrah's collection while hitch-hiking cross country in 1974- it was a fantastic experience.
What I should have said is I don't think Harrah would have had an incorrect car in his collection. I know he was very OCD about them being correct after suffering some embarrasment when his first restored car had some errors. This let to his extensive research department and reference library,.

 

[Bob Johnson]

Brad,


That is definitely not my car. I have the Danish registration paper for the car. In 1931 my car was still owned by the original owner Vlad Pedersen of Odense. The windshield posts on my car was not lowered.


From what I can see in the picture it is a Ford factory built Town Car. All of the Town Car bodies were built by the Briggs company and shipped to the assembly plants where they were mounted on a chassis. It is possible that this Town Car body sat around in the Copenhagen plant until 1930 when it was finally put on a 1930 chassis. Ford did convert about 100 Town Car bodies to fit on 1930 chassis. However that required using 1930 front doors, cowls, hoods and radiators from 1930 Briggs Fordors. This one is not one of those. The upper hinge is the correct aluminum hinge for the 1929 Town Car. The front door has the single drop just below the window.



Bob Johnson

 

[mercman from oz]

Larger photos of the Model A Town Car from the Lyon Collection in Southern California.
What a beautiful car. Thanks for sharing.

 

[eystein]

I think your assumption that the body sat around until 1930, seems very plausible Bob.

Indeed a strange animal.

Brad,


That is definitely not my car. I have the Danish registration paper for the car. In 1931 my car was still owned by the original owner Vlad Pedersen of Odense. The windshield posts on my car was not lowered.


From what I can see in the picture it is a Ford factory built Town Car. All of the Town Car bodies were built by the Briggs company and shipped to the assembly plants where they were mounted on a chassis. It is possible that this Town Car body sat around in the Copenhagen plant until 1930 when it was finally put on a 1930 chassis. Ford did convert about 100 Town Car bodies to fit on 1930 chassis. However that required using 1930 front doors, cowls, hoods and radiators from 1930 Briggs Fordors. This one is not one of those. The upper hinge is the correct aluminum hinge for the 1929 Town Car. The front door has the single drop just below the window.



Bob Johnson

 

[eystein]

Brad,

Add a 1930 hood. I wonder how they got that to fit....

Is it possible to determine if the radiator shell is 28/29 or 30/31. Are there any more pictures ?

Also, is it possible to make a 30/31 hood fit a 28/29 car by removing the hood shelves?

If so, they could have taken the 29 body, fitted it on the 30 chassis put on a leftover or service 29 radiator, removed the hood shelves and fitted the 30/31 hood...

If any more pictures could be found it would be most interesting.

Bob: Is this your car by chance? This is a photo from the February 1931 issue of The Ford Times from the UK:

Odd the '28-'29 cowl and cowl lights, yet '30-'31 wheels, fenders, steering wheel(?) and headlights, and no bumpers. .....and not sure what is going on with the driver's compartment roof? Looks like they lowered the windshield height (looking at the top front door hinge) and/or removed that horizontal bar normally above the windshield.

Maybe it is a '29 body on a '30-'31 chassis? Could the body have been shipped from the US and then assembled on the '30 chassis in Denmark?

Brad in Maryand

 

[Shelbycsx]

The price was $20,000 2 years ago for this car

 

[Roadster62]

Did anyone save that 1930 Town Car that showed up at Reinbeck 40+ years ago? The one with a ton of brazed patch work? Bob

 

[Brad in Germany]

One of the three Town Car that Terry is working on is mine. Since it was hidden in a barn in Denmark in 1987 it was not included in the 1987 article. ......

Bob Johnson

Hi Bob: How about this one.....maybe yours? This photo is from the April 1929 issue of The Ford Times (UK):

I guess this is just another one of the 12 assembled in Copenhagen, Denmark?

Brad in Maryland

 

[Oldbluoval]

Adding to Brent’s assessment and comments
In that 60-70’s era it was amazing as to what “came from
Ashes’
Often a chassis (rails only) was found and turned into “rare” autos Locomobiles, Flyers, Duesies...
The remainder of the drive train and a complete body was fabricated from new steel. New casings were made for engines ****** etc. Many were researched and built to original drawings....others were not. Yes the cost was tremendous
Is that really a vintage car? Not to me ...

 

[ronn]

Is that really a vintage car? Not to me ...





and if it was so well done that you didnt know.............?

 

[Oldbluoval]

I guess that would be a “tribute” car as they refer now.
Most brass era cars have so much reconstruction that most are mostly new and folks know it. That’s why I appreciate vintage original cars no matter what it is
There are still folks around that know differences and can tell what has been replaced.
It really wouldn’t matter to me ...1) can’t afford such 2) don’t want that if I could

 

[ronn]

as time moves on- less and less "experts" are out there and I would guess we are now at the point where many cant tell.


true story- someone I know restored a Mercer and took it to Hershey years ago and the judges said the car was "too good" to be original- and yet it was. so points were deducted.


same individual went back with a completely fake car and it passed with a win in its category............


I agree with your sentiment- but many times I dont know what I am looking at. in the high dollar cars, there is a lot of fudging.

 

[Oldbluoval]

I agree with your sentiment- but many times I dont know what I am looking at. in the high dollar cars, there is a lot of fudging.


Ubetcha! Lots ...but also lots of $$$$ is spent doing same!