Engine Number No Stars

R

Richard Knight

Senior Member
Hi, This is my first post as a new member of the Barn Forum although I am not new to Model A's. Got a pile of parts we called a Tudor in 1961. Then a complete car, a 1929 Murray Sedan in 1964. I do not have an A right now but I am in the hunt for a reasonably priced driver. One car I am looking at has an engine number with no stars. I would like some feed back on that please. I hope to be able to post a photo of the engine number. Thanks, Rick.
 

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Actually your Ford it titled by the number on the frame. When it left the factory the frame and engine numbers matched. Most have received at least one replacement engine since then.
 
The car has an open title from 1980 with that number. It looked like a restamp AA to me also but wanted to see what others thought. I have been to ford garage also. Is it common for the re stamps to not have stars? Thanks, Rick.
 
Well, I've got one with one star! (or maybe that's not a star at the end...) Actually, this is obviously a restamp, and not a very good one. You can see where a couple of the new numbers were whacked twice, and underneath portions of the old number that were not completely ground away. It will be very interesting to see what the frame number turns out to be once I get the body off. My operating assumption is that this is a replacement engine restamped to the original number, as the date of this number (January 1930) is consistent with the rest of the car. And it's the number on the title.

I'm not horribly concerned. This engine is one of the smoothest Model As I've ever driven.

JayJay
 

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By the numbers apparently the engine was produced in September of 29. The stamped numbers also appear to be the correct style for the period, i.e., correct stamps. The picture is not clear enough but the surface where the numbers are stamped looks like it has a casting surface, specifically the surface was not ground or machined. From what I can see based on the picture I would say those are the original numbers to that engine, however the engine may not necessarily be original to the frame. Since the number starts with an "AA" I would say at some point in the past the engine was replaced. I understand that all engines that were intended to go into vehicles had stars at the beginning and end of the serial number. However, I also understand that there were engines produced as spare parts and for commercial use that did not have a number and these engines depending on the use were stamped at the dealership when the engine was placed in the vehicle, which may explain "no stars".


Note: The last time at I replaced the engine in my 29 Tudor we rebuilt one of these standard bore replacement stock unstamped engines that was never used.
 
I think both of these were restamped after engine was installed in the car. Just my guess. After, and installed being the key words. Is the car you are considering titled in your state already? Most states don't require a VIN verification as long as it is already titled in that state.
 
Chris Haynes said:
Actually your Ford it titled by the number on the frame. When it left the factory the frame and engine numbers matched. Most have received at least one replacement engine since then.
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True, but they are supposed to match, usually by re stamping, and in wash state at least they look at the engine number, unless you’re titleing an un titled car. And in my case the frame wasn’t marked, so they restamped the engine only. I was in an accident and the insurance agent went to the engine for proof it matched the title and their records. Didn’t care about the frame.
 
Guys, Thanks, All good info. I think when I can see the block casting date I will have a better idea of the history. But what I am thinking is this engine was a replacement engine that went into a AA but then was later installed in this car. The car is an August 29 Briggs four door. Irony is the car is an unrestored original paint drivable car with a non original motor. At least that is where I am at this time. Ma. is very strict on titles. Fortunately the out of state title will probably be OK. Rick.
 
Gene F said:
I think both of these were restamped after engine was installed in the car. Just my guess. After, and installed being the key words. Is the car you are considering titled in your state already? Most states don't require a VIN verification as long as it is already titled in that state.
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It's clear mine was restamped - the engine casting has been ground smooth, and you can see vestiges of the old numbers underneath. Regardless, that's the number on the title, and when I went to re-register I didn't even have the car running and there. They just accepted the old title (and my check). Title transfer was California to California, and that's consistent with how I've done other registrations.

Previous owner brought the car in from Wisconsin but told me all he had to do was give the DMV the old title (and a check) and all was well.

I'm thinking when I have the car apart I may stamp the engine number onto a convenient place on the frame. Since the original frame number is hidden, only a Model A buff would know to look for it under the body, and Ford never represented that the frame number was the vehicle number (in fact, the owner's manual states that the engine number is the vehicle number - and I did NOT say VIN, I said vehicle number) all I'll be doing is putting a random number on the frame without any attestation of what it means. I mean, I could stamp my birthdate onto the frame and nobody would question it?

Judging from what I've found, my car is an original early 1930 Murray Town Sedan with a replacement engine, plus a really poor repaint sometime in the past. Now that I know it doesn't have the original engine I don't feel as bad that I'm not making a fine points car out of it.


JayJay
 
JayJay said:
I'm thinking when I have the car apart I may stamp the engine number onto a convenient place on the frame. Since the original frame number is hidden, only a Model A buff would know to look for it under the body
JayJay
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Believe me the CHP knows where numbers are. But with this in mind the CHiP that inspected my car said it wouldn't hurt to put my engine number someplace easy to see on the frame.
 
Richard Knight said:
Guys, Thanks, All good info. I think when I can see the block casting date I will have a better idea of the history. But what I am thinking is this engine was a replacement engine that went into a AA but then was later installed in this car. The car is an August 29 Briggs four door. Irony is the car is an unrestored original paint drivable car with a non original motor. At least that is where I am at this time. Ma. is very strict on titles. Fortunately the out of state title will probably be OK. Rick.
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If the date on the Gas Tank is August 29, then this engine number may be correct for this car. This number is early Sept 29 and a "Aug." gas tank may have gone into a body that was not finished and installed on a chassis until several weeks later. I believe the date on the tank is not the date the body was installed on the chassis but the date the tank was made.

I would like a better look at the number on the engine pad. It looks like the pad is original and not messed with. From what I can see, it appears that what looks like the part of the first A may actually be part of the star. and there may be ruminants of a star at the other end of the pad. Often the star is not complete and just part of it got impressed into the pad. If it were me, I would take a small soft wire brush, like is used in TIG welding and carefully clean the pad and see it things become a little more clear. I am thinking this may be the original engine to the car.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Chris W.
 
A few more bits of info. Car is from Wisconsin. Brought to New England not that long ago. Is in storage in another state. So I have to wait to get a better look and picture of the engine number and look for a casting date on the block. The August date I mentioned is on the fire wall not the tank. I won't have access to the car until middle of April ! Rick.
 
Most inportant is that your engine # match the # on title.
If not, simply restamp.
If you actually remove the body, the frame # will be a mere confirmnation or denial of the title accuracy.
 
Good Morning...It seems that the engine number and the registration match according to post five. If that is the case, don't change anything! A state government has accepted that the car is what it is and has registered it. Other states will accept the registration. Assume that the government is asleep in this case...DON'T wake it up...Ernie in Arizona
 
Jay, I have heard stories of guys sandblasting the top of the frame, after they cut a window in the sill atop the frame. They cut it so that the door sill plate covers it., and 1 screw becomes decorative.
 
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