Shims in "A" engine

D

Don/WI

Senior Member
Did Ford have shims in the original factory engines for the rod and main bearings? Or is this something that was done when engines were repaired? If they did have them in original factory engines, how many and what thickness? I never saw this discussed before. Thanks, Don/WI
 
I installed a set of factory NOS connecting rods recently, along with a NOS original crankshaft. For some reason, a couple of the rods required minmal amount of shims. Either on one side or the other amounting to.003" - .005".
 
It's a shame Ryan gave up on preserving the Fordbarn archives or you would have been able to pick up this six year old post from a simple search

Re: Babbitt and Ford Original Shims

[Follow Ups] [Post Followup] [Fordbarn Model A Discussion Forum]

Posted by Marco Tahtaras on Monday, October 24, 2005 at 4:47PM :
In Reply to: Babbitt and Ford Original Shims posted by Kevin in NJ on Monday, October 24, 2005 at 4:29PM :

The original shim spec was .002"-.0025" thick. There was a single pair added to each connecting rod and two pairs added to each main bearing.


 
In 42 years, I think we have had two Model A motors in for re build with a Mix, of steel, and brass shims. I have no doubt Ford had made some out of steel for parts replacement, as they also made some out of brass, as we have used up years ago. STEEL SHIM STOCK, has NO PLACE NEXT TO ANY ROD OR MAIN BEARING, PERIOD. Their in not one engine manufacture is the U.S. that has used steel shims in there engins when New. The only time any body used steel shims, as both brass, and steel were available, AFTER MARKET, but steel was for only one reason, CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP. Steel shims when you align bore, if the cutter hits the shim, in which it always does, the cutter will instantly pick up a steel chip, and always deep grove a finished bearing. Steel shims are prown to be magnetic, holding and recycling metal deposits, from what is coming off the shim from wear, or metal from else where. If a motor sets over winter, or longer, in unheated storage, on cool high moisture days, and you lift the hood, and the motor is sweating, the inside of the engine is getting the same. Steel shims will build frost rust, as will the crank, in the oil pockets, and guess where that goes, that is why you should turn an engine over once a month. Many engines came out with thick steel, or brass filler plates, BUT they are away from, and do not touch the crank, and as always have BRASS shims, from .006, to .032 thousandths laminate. The metal that is used in the filler plate is a soft metal that will not magnetize, but the steel shim material can. Its bad practice of not putting in enough shims in a bearing before you bore the bearing. I can not say for sure, what Ford had for shim pack thickness in his rods, or mains, but I do know that round, bored hole that the Factory made when new, with their shim packs, are LONG GONE. You have to have any hole round, before babbitt, no matter if it takes .016, or .032. Why, because the caps have been, filed, or machined so many times, Plus you are moving the cap in closer to the rear slinger, try to fit Terrys seal into that egg shaped hole. I have had .032 shims not enough to make the hole round, in that case, we pitched the cap. If you use .006 thousands shim, and the hole need .020, you are really making the babbitt weak in the cast cap also. Another false statement is brass shim packs keep compressing, because they are soft, THAT IS B.S. in the bigest way I can express. We torque the bearings at what ever Spec's, Bore, and in the case of main bearings, set crank, and retorque, end of story, can you tighten the clearance with over torque, yes, and you can do that with NO SHIMS INSTALLED, but what is the point. Glen, if you had to add shims to a N.O.S. Ford rod, to fit a N.O.S. crank, some body had robs shims, or they were not Ford N.O.S. Herm
 
Surely some one here has pulled apart an original, never-been-touched engine or two! What was the shim material and what thickness? Or has access to original shims in the original package?
 
40 Deluxe said:
Surely some one here has pulled apart an original, never-been-touched engine or two! What was the shim material and what thickness? Or has access to original shims in the original package?
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Yes, some of us have and answers were already provided. You must read through and decide on your own as with many posts.
 
Marco Tahtaras said:
Yes, some of us have and answers were already provided. You must read through and decide on your own as with many posts.
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OK, one last thing Marco, Look at the the packaging design on the shim package, and I have seen the shims on Vince's site years ago and have no doubt that in came from FORD, but the way that Genuine is printed on the package, I would say those shims were made, at least after 1936, and or up through 1946, as replacements. I do know that the war years, the goverment had all the tin, and that is why so much Lead babbitt was used, also brass was short, an airplanes, Bullets, and all war machines needed it. It was about impossible to buy a New Ford for a time in the war years. I Do not believe that Ford used steel shims in the production years of the Model A. If they did, I should have a 50 gallon barrel of them. I would like to see proof. The model T's used Brass, in the rods and mains, the model A's used Brass in the Rods, the Model B's used Brass in the rods, and mains through 1934. I have never even seen a steel B main shim. So to say the Model A's had steel in the mains in production, all on the evidence of a set of shims that is just as possible came from Ford, in the 40's, right now, I don't think that will hold up in court, as all conclusions have been drawn off that set of shims by Vince. I have never seen anything written to say the shims were made of brass or steel. I am glad I don't base my conclusions in what I do in rebabbitting, on weak evidence like this. SHOW ME!! Herm Hi Dennis
 
Kohnke Rebabbitting said:
OK, one last thing Marco, Look at the the packaging design on the shim package, and I have seen the shims on Vince's site years ago...
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Herm,

Thanks for coming back with a reasonable post and good questions.

What sort of shim thicknesses do you prefer for mains and for rods, assuming the caps are good?

Joe
 
JoeWay said:
Herm,

Thanks for coming back with a reasonable post and good questions.

What sort of shim thicknesses do you prefer for mains and for rods, assuming the caps are good?

Joe
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Joe, I use .032 on all T's, A's, and B's, the reason being, that the caps have been filed so many times, that most times you can hit steel in the cap, when you do that, you do your pouring, and Align Boring over again. On any bearing that can,t be tinned, you have to have at least some where around .050 babbitt thickness or more for strength. You also have to keep the bearing with out babbitt at a round hole, especially the A's, and B's, because of the seal, if one is used. Rods will very, as per hole with out babbitt. We put as many shims in as to get each hole round, and by doing that, you also have the key holes in the nuts come out in the right place.I have used large quantities of ALL .032 thousands of brand names like Federal Mogul, Laminated Shim Co., National, ect. In the early years rebuilding shims came in .016, and .032, but now I would never use .016's. Also shims came in .002 pieces, the one's that came in .003 thousands, and steel were considered only as an economy choice, as the material is a bunch CHEAPER, I am sure K.R.Wilson really Recommended tempered steel shims to keep his Main Bearing Reamers nice and sharp. Thanks Herm.
 
I recently bought two Diamond B's that were less repaired and molested than most. One still had original bore, and both were all diamond so they probably had never gone into the mixing of bulk rebuilders. Both had steel rod and main shims, unfortunately all removed, mixed up, and bent by the guy who disassembled and stirred together the two engines.
 
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