supercharged y-block carb on e-pay

[scicala]

It would be very difficult, if not impossible to build a clone or phony version of this carburetor, because of the unique base.


Sal

 

[KULTULZ]

"I don't believe there was a DATE CODE during this period"

There were definitely date codes on Holley carbs of this era. Stamped on the highest part of the bowl cover. If these were hand built outside of the normal Holley 4000 production line, I guess it would be possible to be stamped in a different area, or not stamped at all.

Also, these carbs had a totally unique base casting (throttle body). Not like any other Holley 4000 made.

Sal

I stand corrected and apologize. The two photos below show the location of the CARB ASSY DATE?

Was the SC H4000 base unique in shape or was it just sealed to prevent pressure blow-by through the throttle shafts?

 

[KULTULZ]

AA Carbs were used on the Phase 1 vehicles - both passenger cars and T Birds.

AB carbs were Phase 2 installed on both passenger cars and T Birds

Oldmics

Can I ask the source of your info? I have both SERVICE and PARTS info that says differently. Just want to know the actual fact(s).

 

[scicala]

"I stand corrected and apologize. The two photos below show the location of the CARB ASSY DATE"

"Was the SC H4000 base unique in shape or was it just sealed to prevent pressure blow-by through the throttle shafts? "




Kultulz, no apology needed here. I was just pointing out that they did have codes, and the location.


The SC carb had added thickness to the casting on the left rear side. Unlike all others.


Also, the pictures you posted are of one of the carbs I did. (not an SC carb).


Sal




"

 

[y'sguy]

Thanks for all this discussion, guys. In my early days with birds and salvage yard trips, we ran across all kinds of blowers and e type configs. At the time in the late 60's all those things were pretty mysterious and puzzling to deal with, not having a good knowledge base. I had seveeral e tpe setups and several blowers setups but never could accumulate all the needed parts for a good blower setup for my bird. It seems like all we ever saw were these REALLY basketcase set ups. However even though it was all sold off, traded, or abandoned in those days-I wish I had kept every bit of the junk. No internet. No Manual, No aftermarket catalogs yet. just heresay mostly.
Dad was a corporate pilot and flew all over the country. Whenever he would have downtime in anytown, USA he would head to the local FORD dealership and buy as many tbird specific items as he could haul back on the plane. Fun times, lots of interesting parts for dirt cheap. Although we didn't know it then.

 

[Oldmics]

[QUOTE} Can I ask the source of your info? I have both SERVICE and PARTS info that says differently. Just want to know the actual fact(s).[/QUOTE]


AHHH KT - you just love to keep me on my toes !


As discussed the parts used had to be "homologated" for use by any of the race teams. Meaning they had to be listed as an availiable production part .


The Phase 1 parts are listed. They were snuck in for the race boys thru the back door as "Police Interceptor" parts.


Lord knows the Cops had to chase those moonshining bad guys so not only were preformance parts listed but items such as beefier brakes and suspension items were also included in the homologation parts list.


I will admit that most of my knowledge originally comes from the owners of these machines but for verification as requested Ford"s "1949 - 1957 Police Interceptor" Parts list has the carb identified as B7A 9510-V.


Using the trusty Master Cross Reference book to cross reference the B7A 9510-V it shows the "Known Part Number" stamped on the carb as EDB 9510 AA.


Not yet mentioned is the fact that the AA carbs were subjected to a higher boost pressure used for the race boys.
Meaning that there are a few differences inside the AA carb when compared to the lower boost pressures of the AB Phase 2 carbs.


I too have seen the documentation that you have stating that the units were interchangeable.
Is there an actual table that states that AA were Phase 1 and AB Phase 2 applied ? - the answer at this time is not that I am aware of.


However I will take Ford"s Police Interceptor parts list verifieing the AA use on the earliest known vehicles along with the knowledgable owners who make the claim.


Oldmics

 

[scicala]

Well, the EBAY auction ended and no bids or "buy it now" on the supercharger carburetor.
If it gets re-listed, I'm curious if the price will be lower. I'm sure there were a ton of people following this one.


Sal

 

[Oldmics]

And its back up again at the same prices


https://www.ebay.com/itm/264224945980?ViewItem=&vxp=mtr&item=264224945980

 

[KULTULZ]

SELLER'S DESCRIPTION ON EVIL-BAY -

This was on a 1957 D/F Ford (phase one) sold at Maywood Bell Ford in the city of Maywood CA December 1956 (according to previous owner), I bought this over 15 years ago, it's time to sell, look for more Supercharger parts soon, sold as is no returns, it took me over 25 years to find a real supercharger carburetor.

The references I have found describes the assembly of the engines (PHASE 1) in JAN 57. Then they would have to go to an assembly plant. So how was a D/F FORD bought with the CARB in question in DEC 56?

The carb(s) in question were (are) LISTED in 49/59 MPC FINAL ISSUE. I also have FORD info as stating the -AA was BIRD ASSY and -AB was FORD ASSY - PHASE 1.

PHASE 2 used -AB on either assembly and -AA was later replaced by -AB.

Either CARB -AA / -AB could have not been used on any assy other than SC as the CARB CALIB was unique for boost. The only way it could have been used on a POLICE VEHICLE is if the POLICE PACKAGE was ordered with the SC engine (PHASE 2).

I would post all of this but my scanner is on hiatus (and I have my good clothes on and can't get them dirty fighting).

Now, I need to know if the ASSY DATE CODE was stamped on the fuel bowl cover (9524) on the raised portion please ...

 

[KULTULZ]

Does anyone have the shown 1957 SC Manual?

If so, does it give PHASE 1 and/or 2 info, especially relating to carburetion?

EDIT -

Ah, I see the board is up to it's old tricks with Ill's ...

 

[scicala]

I asked the EBAY seller what the date code is. He said "621". That is the first week of Feb. 1956. Doesn't make sense. Sounds way too early, but maybe they did build them that early. I kind of doubt it though.
My gutt feeling is that the carb has been worked on somewhere along the line and the bowl cover was changed.
Doesn't help answer any questions, but does add to the confusion.


Sal

 

[scicala]

This link is to an interesting article from Amos Minter about the Phase 1 D/F birds.
Says all 15 cars were built on Jan. 25th, 1957. Hand built at Dearborn Assembly Plant.


Sal


https://www.amosminter.com/1957_White_Supercharge_1.php

 

[KULTULZ]

I asked the EBAY seller what the date code is. He said "621". That is the first week of Feb. 1956. Doesn't make sense. Sounds way too early, but maybe they did build them that early. I kind of doubt it though.

My gutt feeling is that the carb has been worked on somewhere along the line and the bowl cover was changed.

Doesn't help answer any questions, but does add to the confusion.

Sal

THANX! for that effort/info Sal.

What it does in invalidate the claim it is 100% factory correct (IMO).

 

[scicala]

KULTULZ,


Yes, I would say it's not 100% correct parts because I took another look at the pictures. The bowl covers were changed for different venting in the late 1956 model year, and all carbs forward of that had the revised bowl covers. The carb in the EBAY auction has the old style bowl cover. All of the supercharger carbs I've seen had the revised new bowl covers.
Not a big deal to replace, since all 4000 model teapot carbs for Ford had the same bowl cover for the end of the '56 model year. Fairly common to find.


Sal

 

[scicala]

I also told the EBAY seller what was up with the bowl cover. I doubt he will edit the auction though.


Sal

 

[KULTULZ]

And now this-

The very first factory-sponsored supercharged Thunderbirds were actually 1956 models built by Peter DePaolo Engineering in Long Beach, Calif. Several 1957 Thunderbirds were then similarly modified for racing.

SOURCE- This article is from the Standard Guide to American Muscle Cars by John Gunnell (Krause Publications)


Who's to say? I doubt if all facts will come to light as most have been lost or forgotten. And then you have the naysayers that add their spin.

There has to be HOLLEY documentation somewhere that will answer when the blow-thru carbs were first offered.

I also believe there was factory racing and racing team fabrications and they were separate.

 

[KULTULZ]

And here is yet another song and dance-

1957 Ford Thunderbird D/F-Code Phase I

For the 1957 Daytona Speed Weeks, Ford prepared an armada of special cars including 15 supercharged versions of the Thunderbird. That weekend Harold Mauck ran 138.755 mph for the Two-Way Flying Mile and Ford subsequently put the F-Code supercharged Thunderbird into production.

The D/F-Code was part of a Ford Motor Company Supercharger Program to homologate Ford’s superchargers into NASCAR. As part of 100 supercharged cars, they made 15 Thunderbirds. These had their radio, heater, clock and lighter deleted as well as black tires, no fender skirts and small hubcaps.

All 15 cars were built on January 25, 1957 using a single carburetor engine, McCulloch VR57 Phase 1 supercharger and a heavy duty three-speed manual transmission.

Later that year, Ford offered the F-Code Thunderbird which used the same Paxton-McCulloch VR57 supercharger, supercharger but with the full array of options

SOURCE- www.supercars.net/blog/1957-ford-thunderbird-df-code-phase/


So when you see a supposed D/F CODE BIRD with full trim, it is not a survivor or claimed restoration but a resto-mod.

 

[scicala]

Think I may give up for now. The '57 Bird that Amos Minter is claiming to be one of the 15 D/F birds is loaded with options like power windows and seat, skirts and full wheel covers.
Not exactly a stripped radio and heater delete car as described it should be.
Gets pretty confusing to me, since Amos is the premier T-Bird restorer in the country.


Sal

 

[KULTULZ]

Yeah, this subject for the rich kids. I never got even close to a version. It goes to show what all types of facts and myths are floating.


Why would FOMOCO build a fully optioned race car? I doubt they made a profit on the PHASE 1 cars, just trying to make it NASCAR legal.

 

[KULTULZ]

NASCAR's Grand National race series had started to gain traction in the South. Carl Kiekhaefer's Chryslers and Chevrolet's new lightweight V-8 threatened to end Ford's stock car racing dominance in the South. So in 1955, Ford's Robert McNamara turned to one of his advisors, Harley Copp, a racing enthusiast, to see how they could remedy the situation. Copp suggested they hire DePaolo to form a stock car program for Ford. DePaolo's success came not so much in running the program as making smart hiring decisions.

As Tom Cotter and Al Pearce wrote in Holman-Moody: the Legendary Race Team, DePaolo technically owned the whole operation, called DePaolo Engineering, to keep Ford from appearing to support racing. "DePaolo did the hiring and firing, and built the specialty parts and pieces needed for racing," Cotter and Pearce wrote.

But DePaolo wanted to base the program in Southern California, to stay close to Bill Stroppe's operations (see HMM#61), and only reluctantly established a shop in Charlotte, North Carolina. Nor did DePaolo directly run the program: He still kept an office in California and hired driver-mechanic Buddy Shuman (and then Red Vogt after Shuman died in a hotel fire) to actually run the Charlotte operation. At the urging of Ford executives, DePaolo also kept a promising driver named Ralph Moody (see HMM#21) on the payroll, but made one key decision in May of 1956 when Stroppe's parts truck driver walked into his office in Los Angeles and asked for a job.

DePaolo recognized John Holman's outstanding knack for organization and decided then and there to hire Holman to replace Vogt. Under Stroppe's management, DePaolo Engineering finally started to win races a month later, and with nine checkered flags from the team, Ford took the NASCAR manufacturer's championship that year.

DePaolo Engineering even had a hand in building one of the famed Battlebird '57 Thunderbirds.

SOURCE- https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2009/04/Pete-DePaolo/1797835.html


________________________________________________________________________


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