Bolt and nut frame to body issue
- Thread starter Jwawhite
- Start date
KULTULZ
Well-known member
It's hard to say J. The factory torque values were for factory insulators. It is hard to say what they (restorers) used to re-assemble. The insulator should be like a shock bushing, don't tighten down enough to allow the insulator to extend beyond the washer diameter.
Did you find this ILL in your SHOP MANUAL or did you get the BODY MANUAL?
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KULTULZ
Well-known member
Also, if you notice one pulling hard compared to others nearby, that is where you start using shims as something may be out of align and nothing was perfect from original assembly.
When you dis-assemble something, some things come out of alignment and may not go back as exactly as originally assembled. You have the vehicle frame evenly and squarely supported (no sagging)?
Did that make sense ...
When you dis-assemble something, some things come out of alignment and may not go back as exactly as originally assembled. You have the vehicle frame evenly and squarely supported (no sagging)?
Did that make sense ...
Jwawhite
Well-known member
Not in the Trim and Sealer book but what a wealth of how to do things correctly, it's paid for itself, $45., the extra stuff I needed to do -- to right the car. An example would be the Water Shield at rear of interior quarter panel, rattle noise fixes, correct sealant locations, etc but no frame info unfortunately.
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Jwawhite
Well-known member
This ain't workin', something is missing with the frame bolts.
The upper washer and rubber grommet was sucked down the rather large circumference of body pan before 15 ft lb. Sould there be a grade eight washer on floor pan to close down cirumference, before rubber grommet and upper washer? Or else, what's missing? In removing the eight floor bolts by front door other than the wrong items, all was the same. Was the body never torqued correctly after body off??
The upper washer and rubber grommet was sucked down the rather large circumference of body pan before 15 ft lb. Sould there be a grade eight washer on floor pan to close down cirumference, before rubber grommet and upper washer? Or else, what's missing? In removing the eight floor bolts by front door other than the wrong items, all was the same. Was the body never torqued correctly after body off??
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KULTULZ
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Daves55Sedan
Well-known member
Make sure that you have one square rubber pad sitting on top of the speed-nut that is inserted onto the frame bracket in each hole location.
I did not use a torque wrench when installing my bolts but I do recall going all around and tightening a second time for firmness. I didn't get crazy tight with the bolts, but rest assured they haven't budged.
It is not right that the special washers on top should be crushed. They are very strong. Wonder if your torque wrench is way off.
One thing you gotta watch is if the floor panel all around the bolt hole seems to be crushing down. It should not, but should remain flat. If this happens, back off the bolt and go down underneath and install a metal shim in between the square rubber pad and body. Usually, the factory shims are 1/16 inch thick but you can probably get varying thicknesses.
I did not use a torque wrench when installing my bolts but I do recall going all around and tightening a second time for firmness. I didn't get crazy tight with the bolts, but rest assured they haven't budged.
It is not right that the special washers on top should be crushed. They are very strong. Wonder if your torque wrench is way off.
One thing you gotta watch is if the floor panel all around the bolt hole seems to be crushing down. It should not, but should remain flat. If this happens, back off the bolt and go down underneath and install a metal shim in between the square rubber pad and body. Usually, the factory shims are 1/16 inch thick but you can probably get varying thicknesses.
Daves55Sedan
Well-known member
If you go back up and look at the Body-to-Frame mounting kit instructions that KUTULZ posted, locate the two bolt-holes identified with the (3) indicator. These are the two that are located in the frame rise or bump-up for the rear axle toward the front of the rise. Those are the only two that I have ever seen shims used on, and they needed one set of shims on both my '55 Sedan and my '55 Courier wagon.
But if the floor/inner & outer rocker panels of your car was re-worked or had major re-construction, anything goes as far as need for shims (unless you know for sure that the welding was done when the body was square and level during the rebuilding process).
But if the floor/inner & outer rocker panels of your car was re-worked or had major re-construction, anything goes as far as need for shims (unless you know for sure that the welding was done when the body was square and level during the rebuilding process).
Jwawhite
Well-known member
KULTULZ and Daves55Sedan, it may be the Frankenwagon is different from sedans concerning the frame mounts: Please note attached photos.
I used Grade 8 washers to support the upper washer and installed rubber insulator. All bolts and nuts were torqued to 10 pounds, looked sufficient in relation to pad squish and rubber washer squish.
I used Grade 8 washers to support the upper washer and installed rubber insulator. All bolts and nuts were torqued to 10 pounds, looked sufficient in relation to pad squish and rubber washer squish.
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KULTULZ
Well-known member
Correct, there are some difference(s) between sedan and wagon but without original FORD info it is a guessing game. The actual insulators you now have may not be the same hardness of OEM and that is why they are spread ind with low torque values.
You just have to do the best you can with what you have.
KULTULZ
Well-known member
I used Grade 8 washers to support the upper washer and installed rubber insulator. All bolts and nuts were torqued to 10 pounds, looked sufficient in relation to pad squish and rubber washer squish.
This mount you show, what position is it on the chart I showed?
Jwawhite
Well-known member
It's number 8.
KULTULZ
Well-known member
Here is a crop of Assy Detail #8. Does the assembly sequence sound correct and what hardware you have is anywhere near the hardware illustration of the aftermarket (CHINESEIUM) kit?
I would a$$-u-me the kit maker would copy OEM to a certain extent at the least.
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Jwawhite
Well-known member
KULTULZ, if you read the top of the diagram page, the kit is for a 2 or 4 door Sedan.
The parts listed make sense except for the "round pad". I don't know where that'd go in relation to my setup.
It would be great if a Wagon owner who has first hand knowledge commented.
The parts listed make sense except for the "round pad". I don't know where that'd go in relation to my setup.
It would be great if a Wagon owner who has first hand knowledge commented.
Daves55Sedan
Well-known member
Okay, I own both a Sedan and a wagon (Courier is same frame mounting as wagon) but there are only very few differences at the very rear.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the rubber pads that go between the body and frame are ALL supposed to be square rubber pads and of exact same thickness. Resto parts suppliers do offer these square pads. Yes they are a little bit softer than the originals and the new ones don't have the nylon weaved cloth embedded in them, so torque value may need to be adjusted a little bit.
The body-to-frame mounting kit that KUTULZ shows above is for a '57/58 and is not the same as the 55/56 kit. However is does show the "speed-nuts" that are supposed to be inserted in the frame brackets, (then the square rubber pads sit directly on top of the flat part of the speed-nut).
I did my own body-off-frame work on both my car and wagon so I know what I am talking about. The finished installation on my cars is identical to the factory parts and installation.
On '55/56 cars and wagons there is only ONE type of pad that goes between body and frame and that is the thick square rubber pad. All floorholes have ONE type of round countersunk rubber washer (except for at the very front and very rear mounts). The front mounts at the cowl did not originally have a rubber washer on top, but only had a very thick round steel washer and castle nut to go on the stud thru the frame.
At the very back of the wagon, the bolts do not go thru the floor. The bolt is inserted upside down thru the frame, passes thru the hole in the square rubber pad, then thru an angle attached to rear floor support where it pokes thru. Then on top of that angle you have a thick round steel washer and castle nut exactly like the ones used for the cowl mounts.
I could go down under and try to take pictures of each type of mount but I guarantee the pictures wouldn't be any good. Sorry.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the rubber pads that go between the body and frame are ALL supposed to be square rubber pads and of exact same thickness. Resto parts suppliers do offer these square pads. Yes they are a little bit softer than the originals and the new ones don't have the nylon weaved cloth embedded in them, so torque value may need to be adjusted a little bit.
The body-to-frame mounting kit that KUTULZ shows above is for a '57/58 and is not the same as the 55/56 kit. However is does show the "speed-nuts" that are supposed to be inserted in the frame brackets, (then the square rubber pads sit directly on top of the flat part of the speed-nut).
I did my own body-off-frame work on both my car and wagon so I know what I am talking about. The finished installation on my cars is identical to the factory parts and installation.
On '55/56 cars and wagons there is only ONE type of pad that goes between body and frame and that is the thick square rubber pad. All floorholes have ONE type of round countersunk rubber washer (except for at the very front and very rear mounts). The front mounts at the cowl did not originally have a rubber washer on top, but only had a very thick round steel washer and castle nut to go on the stud thru the frame.
At the very back of the wagon, the bolts do not go thru the floor. The bolt is inserted upside down thru the frame, passes thru the hole in the square rubber pad, then thru an angle attached to rear floor support where it pokes thru. Then on top of that angle you have a thick round steel washer and castle nut exactly like the ones used for the cowl mounts.
I could go down under and try to take pictures of each type of mount but I guarantee the pictures wouldn't be any good. Sorry.
KULTULZ
Well-known member
I have mentioned that several times J. There is no kit (that I can find) for a wagon.
You therefore have to adapt what you have to work.
The only way around this is to find original FORD repair/parts literature and go from there (and I have no interest in sourcing it but it is available). With original PN's and hardware numbers, you can match with quality aftermarket parts. These are available from BODY SUPPLY VENDORS, not the junk sold on the so-called restoration sites.
Simply put, it it is not OEM, you have to adapt what you have to your application.
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