Seat Belts

What is recommended IMO, is not seat belts alone but three point belts with both shoulder and lap restraint. Please excuse my posting about this once again, but if I can save some lives or serious injuries, it's worth any criticism I may get from constantly talking about this subject.

In a crash, lap belts alone will force your body to hinge at the waist and throw your upper body forward. With little room in a Model A, your head will hit the steering wheel or the windshield if you are tall. The passenger's head will hit the steel dash or go through the windshield. Better than nothing, of course, but not really safe, although they will keep you in the car instead of on the pavement.

There are several threads on this forum on how to install full shoulder/lap belts in a Model A. If you have trouble finding them, PM me and I'll help. If you are going to the trouble installing lap belts, it's not that much more work to add the upper body belts at the same time.

I did the installation in a '31 roadster which would basically be the same as your car. Some models are a little more challenging, especially the pickups. For others with sedans, the B pillar is not strong enough and the shoulder belts need to mount behind the rear seat.

Glen
 
I believe the regulations covering seat belts are made by the dumbest smart people about. The way the law is here, no seat belt is perfectly legal if the car wasn’t fitted with one when sold new. To fit seat belts to such a car, they must be inspected and approved by an engineer. As we all know, fitting a seat belt to one of our cars is difficult because they were not designed for them. That doesn’t matter to these guys, if it’s not approved by them, it’s not legal and the owner is liable for all sorts of legal action in the event of a crash.
I figure that any seatbelt is better than none so why do they make it so hard?
I bet if one of those engineers got into an older car with seat belts, he would put one on without asking “Is it approved?”
 
daren007 said:
I see there two different length seat belts offered, 60" and 72". What is recommended for a 30 Coupe.
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None of the previous three posters answered the original posters question.

If I were faced with this I would sit in the car with a measuring tape and measure from anchor point to anchor point around my lap and add sufficient length to be comfortable with a a heavy winter coat

My 31CCPU belts are 72”. I weigh 165# and there is ample length to surround a driver whose belly protruded into the steering wheel. 60” would have been more than ample for me. I assume the Coupe anchor point would be similar to the PU.
 
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daren007 said:
I see there two different length seat belts offered, 60" and 72". What is recommended for a 30 Coupe.
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My suggestion would be for the longer of these two lengths given.
I regret putting shorter length is my A ('30 roadster). When someone who is ...larger than small/medium , gets in to ride , the shorter belts do not allow them to be used. It is a safety issue, so no larger ones get a ride in the roadster.
 
But, but, where to anchor the seat belts is the really big problem for me. Anchor them to the frame, the strongest point available, then get cut in half when the body departs the frame, or anchor them to the body, which will most likely pull through leaving a big hole with lots of rusty powder, and my face in the windshield??? Or, how about one end to the frame, the other to the body, just to hedge my bets, or better yet, one entire belt to the body, the other entire belt to the frame, that way maybe one of us will survive, and can feed the dog??? OR, no seat belts at all. In the hope we'll be thrown clear???

I'm going back to bed, my head hurts...
 
Lona;; I wish you and others would not use the PM in your answers. Many of us want to know the answers or where to find the answers so why not post it in the original thread. I for one want to know for my 30 roadster. Shoulder belts do not seem possible in a roadster.??? Jack
 
Jack,

Embarrassed to say I don't know how to make a link to my old threads on this forum. Anybody have the time to list how to do it?

There are two seat belt threads you can access through an on-line search:

"put 3 point retractable seat belts in roadster the ford barn"

"retractable 3 point seat belts in a sedan"

Hope this helps. The roadster post was on 3/22/14 and the sedan post on 2/2/15

Glen
 
Synchro909 said:
As a rule of thumb, the top mount should be close to 550mm above the seat.
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Taking this into consideration I don't see any way to install shoulder harnesses in a Model A. Lap belts (except for possible ejection) offer no protection for the various reasons stated. To me, sharpening defensive driving and thinking like a motorcyclist should (no protection) is the best remedy to be safer.

John
 
Synchro mentions the top mount should be 550 mm (21.6") above the seat. I believe he was talking about 550 mm above the bottom seat cushion, not 550 mm above the rear of the seat back. Our 2014 Buick Enclave attachment is 24" above the seat cushion and our GMC Yukon attachment is 25" above the seat so Synchro's approx 22" is in the ballpark with both of our moderns. This puts the belt just about even with a normal height shoulder, although some newer cars have adjustable attachment points to accommodate different sized passengers. 550 mm above the seat back would put the attachment point through the roof on most moderns. In my '31 A roadster installation, the shoulder strap that goes over the seat is 21" higher than the cushion and just fine for my 5'6" frame.

Further, several sources like Seat Belt Planet, Retro Belt and others catering to the passenger car business recommend the angle of the belt from the top of the seat back to the rear attachment point be 0* to minus 40 to 45* down from the horizontal. The racing suppliers like Simpson, Schroth and the SFI Foundation recommend the attachment be 0* to minus 20* for competitive driving.

My roadster installation retractor attachment is less than 20* and within all the guidelines. So, it is not only possible to install 3 point retractables in a Model A roadster but the installation works quite well.

There are many who feel seat belts of any kind are useless or unnecessary and I respect their opinions.......but totally disagree. Just my own opinion.

Glen
 
Lona said:
Synchro mentions the top mount should be 550 mm (21.6") above the seat. I believe he was talking about 550 mm above the bottom seat cushion, not 550 mm above the rear of the seat back. Our 2014 Buick Enclave attachment is 24" above the seat cushion and our GMC Yukon attachment is 25" above the seat so Synchro's approx 22" is in the ballpark with both of our moderns. This puts the belt just about even with a normal height shoulder, although some newer cars have adjustable attachment points to accommodate different sized passengers. 550 mm above the seat back would put the attachment point through the roof on most moderns. In my '31 A roadster installation, the shoulder strap that goes over the seat is 21" higher than the cushion and just fine for my 5'6" frame.

Further, several sources like Seat Belt Planet, Retro Belt and others catering to the passenger car business recommend the angle of the belt from the top of the seat back to the rear attachment point be 0* to minus 40 to 45* down from the horizontal. The racing suppliers like Simpson, Schroth and the SFI Foundation recommend the attachment be 0* to minus 20* for competitive driving.

My roadster installation retractor attachment is less than 20* and within all the guidelines. So, it is not only possible to install 3 point retractables in a Model A roadster but the installation works quite well.

There are many who feel seat belts of any kind are useless or unnecessary and I respect their opinions.......but totally disagree. Just my own opinion.

Glen
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I apologize if I wasn’t clear enough on that but yes, that is whatI meant.
 
For my '36 5 window, I purchased the 60 inch and found out that they were too short, I was able to use them for the rumble seat and then purchased 72 inch ones for the passenger compartment. Get 72s, it is easier to shorten them than stretch them.
 
A lot of Model A repair shops won't install them, they don't want to be liable.

You have to do it yourself if you want them.
 
aermotor said:
Taking this into consideration I don't see any way to install shoulder harnesses in a Model A. Lap belts (except for possible ejection) offer no protection for the various reasons stated. To me, sharpening defensive driving and thinking like a motorcyclist should (no protection) is the best remedy to be safer.

John
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My point on the shoulder harness is that there is nothing structural to attach the third point to - so why do it?

John
 
John,

Google "put 3 point retractable seat belts in roadster the ford barn". Shows the complete installation with photos including how to firmly attach the retractors to the framework in the rumble or trunk compartment. If one were uncomfortable with the strength of that attachment, a little more welded reinforcement would make it stronger.

My reply is not meant to be argumentative and I respect your opinions but I would hate to see someone planning to install 3 point belts in a Model A not do so because he read that it can't be done.

I also agree with Jeff/Illinois that no shop will do it for you for liability reasons. It must be a DIY project. When I sell any of my cars with self-installed belts, I will need to either get a signed waiver from the buyer regarding the belts or remove them before the sale for the same reasons. Remember, even well thought out belt installations in our cars will not make you as safe as in modern cars but their installation will certainly diminish injuries or prevent death in the great majority of cases. No matter how defensive you drive or how careful you are, accidents do happen.

Glen
 
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