Lug centric vs hub centric

RobR'35

RobR'35

Well-known member
Anyone have balancing issues with wire wheels/tires on our cars?
I've got Kelsey Hayes 16" on my car. They lug center on our hub/drums as do standard Ford wheels.
I'm having difficulty balancing by hub centric. Chasing weights because I believe the center hole is NOT dead center.
I've dial indicated all wheels/tires where the bead of the tire seats in the wheel,but on the outside of the wheel. Off a front hub/drum of the car with the brakes backed off. Ran each one twice for lateral run out and out of round runout .The variation was only .003 between the two runs.
Lateral run-out
1.-.019. +.014
2.-.006. +.030
3. .000. +.044
4.-.035. +.000

Out of round run out
1.-.055. +.006
2.-.013. +.022
3.-.005. +.038
4.-.025. +.015
I have heard that Fords spec. for lateral runout is .125 but I've not seen a spec. for out of round runout.
I'm looking for some insight as to what some of the barners have run into and ideas for remedies.
Thanks, Rob.
 
I've never had a problem, but have noticed over the years that several folks having the same problem as you have recommended mounting the tire/wheel on a front drum, and to mount the entire assembly on the spin balancer to balance. Only a suggestion to consider. DD
 
Many balancers have a plate that can be set up lug centric--- but it takes more time and skill than the balancer operater has usually
 
I seen this plate. Also the lack of knowledge.
I asked to go and watch. Which I did.
Is the plate ur speaking of Kurt in NJ the one that does lug centric from the front of the wheel?
If so the hub cap opening is 5.75" in Dia.
of course it's 5.50 lug pattern and the pins they had werent long enough. From the face of the hub cap area to just the flat of where the lug nuts go is 5 3/16".
There was a pin and or a plate interference.
I think the hub idea that V8 COOPMAN mentioned
may be the way to go.
 
Remember chasing a similar situation, it turned out that the tire was not concentric with the bead (faulty tire). Fix was a new tire.
 
I'm curious of that as well 51 MERC-CT.
I'm wanting to mount whese wheels to the machine the same as on the car though.
I'm just off the phone with a hunter engineer.
I'm going to have a plate made that mimics our hubs
that will adapt to the balancer for lug centric balancing.
 
Have you driven the car with them balanced as best you can?.... Maybe a dumb question but is there a problem, or do you want them almost perfectly balanced before you drive it?.... Mark
 
RobR'35 said:
I'm curious of that as well 51 MERC-CT.
I'm wanting to mount whese wheels to the machine the same as on the car though.
I'm going to have a plate made that mimics our hubs
that will adapt to the balancer for lug centric balancing.
Click to expand...

An easier way MAY be to cut-down a '35 front drum to get rid of all of that superfluous bulk. In other words, cut-off the five "spokes" (at equal, BALANCED lengths) just outside the stud area by 3/4" or so). Then, bolt your wheel to what's left.........essentially a hub. What do I know? DD

105761
 
RobR'35 said:
Anyone have balancing issues with wire wheels/tires on our cars?
I've got Kelsey Hayes 16" on my car. They lug center on our hub/drums as do standard Ford wheels.
I'm having difficulty balancing by hub centric. Chasing weights because I believe the center hole is NOT dead center.
I've dial indicated all wheels/tires where the bead of the tire seats in the wheel,but on the outside of the wheel. Off a front hub/drum of the car with the brakes backed off. Ran each one twice for lateral run out and out of round runout .The variation was only .003 between the two runs.
One thing that most guys probably don't consider are the tubes. First hand I can tell ya that the tubes can cause major issues when balancing. I know, I know, it doesn't seem possible but again, I've witnessed this too many times close up and personal.
I no longer use reproduction tubes unless that's all that is available.
Click to expand...
 
I have driven the car since they were balanced.
Not good or to my liking at all!
As to reproduction tubes..... Maybe run without tubes?
I know when I booght this car the previous owner had bridstone WW radial tires on it with no tubes. They were very weather checked. It ran down the road WAY better than now.
Than I put the spare set he had in his basement for years on with tubes and balanced. Noticeable balance difference for the worse.
That was in late July last year. Made in 1989 in France. Michilin X.
Not a crack or check of any kind in them.
By Oct. they were checking and cracking all over. I couldn't believe it!
So now new cookers with tubes same thing.......
Maybe take them out and see.
 
V8COOPMAN said:
An easier way MAY be to cut-down a '35 front drum to get rid of all of that superfluous bulk. In other words, cut-off the five "spokes" (at equal, BALANCED lengths) just outside the stud area by 3/4" or so). Then, bolt your wheel to what's left.........essentially a hub. What do I know? DD

105761
Click to expand...

If you look at the drum you can see where the rim seats on the outside by the brake drum area, to have proper mounting it all has to be there
 
It is a good idea on the hub/drum.
Maybe a '46-'48 type front hub too with no drum.
Or a NEW '40 style hub.....
I had rings made at a machine shop a couple years ago for the center support.
I guy mentioned to me just rtv them to the wheel centered off the lug holes. Seems to work great.
 
Kurt in NJ said:
If you look at the drum you can see where the rim seats on the outside by the brake drum area, to have proper mounting it all has to be there
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right, Kurt. I should have noted that the entire FLAT surface needs to remain for proper wheel support. It sounds like Rob may have it under control with his '40 hub and adapter ring. DD
 
You can also see the ring just outboard of the windows that adds further support to the centre of the wire wheels.

Though desirable, countless wires have been run on later hubs without that ring and have survived.

The inner nubs or a substitute ring are absolutely essential, though.

On the subject of balancing, I have not had the wheels on my roadster or coupe balanced. I don't drive far enough or fast enough for it to be an issue. I have not experienced the vibrations as described by RobR.

Mart.
 
I really appreciate the help and ideas guys.
Seems one thing leads to another.
So.... Most that have wire wheels on their cars balnace by hub centric and don't have many issues?
 
V8COOPMAN said:
An easier way MAY be to cut-down a '35 front drum to get rid of all of that superfluous bulk. In other words, cut-off the five "spokes" (at equal, BALANCED lengths) just outside the stud area by 3/4" or so). Then, bolt your wheel to what's left.........essentially a hub. What do I know? DD

105761
Click to expand...

Last year when I was having so much trouble with vibration I did what DD is referring to I think. It was a 34 front drum. I also made an axle for it that would fit in John Worden's tire shaver. It worked so well that I did not even balance the wheels. Never driving over 55mph probably helps also.
 

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I run 16" bent spoke Kelseys on the original 35 drums, with 16" tractor tubes. You need to run tubes in Kelseys because of the spokes riveted into the rim....Tractor tubes have the fat valve stem, so you don't need to run those plastic 'grommets' in the rim to compensate for the skinny regular 16" valve stems.....And the fun part is pouring 'Dyabeads' through the valve stem before final inflation of the tire.....But, I have no 'tacky' lead balance weights attached to my rims, and I can drive my 35 as fast as it'll go, [very fast!] with absolutely no vibration whatsoever. I tell everyone [especially those owners of Fords with the wide 5 bolt pattern- how do you balance them??], about dynabeads, and I'm telling you....they will cure any imbalance in any wheel /tire combination. I'm not passing comment on your mounting of Kelseys on 48 style brakedrums.
 
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