Restore or just repair?

J Witt

J Witt

Well-known member
This is kind of a philosophy question, always good for some forum opinions.

I bought my car partly as an investment, but more for the fun of driving and maintaining it. I've observed that there seems to be a trend in the old car marketplace for vehicles that have "patina". This trend appears to have a lot of emphasis on survivor cars that have had no restoration whatsoever.

Now you and I know, cars that have been sitting in storage a long time generally can't be driven. At a minimum, tires, brakes, battery and fuel systems need to be worked on to get a car in a safe driveable condition.

So the question is, where do repairs stop and restoration begins, and how much restoration affects the "patina" to the point where value is reduced.

If I do things, such as painting suspension parts, have I hurt or enhanced the value of the car. Mind you, this isn't going to stop me from cleaning and painting parts or re-upholstering the seats, but I'm curious to know if there is any objective standard between original rusty barn find and 100 point restoration.

John
 
I would think that any car retaining 80% of its originality with respect to the specific area would be considered "original" as Henry built it. Our three time Rouge winning 39 Mercury has a front seat cover (closely matching the original material) but we can still pull it back and show the "original" tattered front drivers side seat, other than that its original interior. The trunk lid and both rear fenders were repaired and repainted in the past from an accident but other than that the paint is original. Any repair to the motor, suspension etc etc we have repaired but not cleaned or painted anything. Things such as wiring, water pumps, hoses etc etc I think are acceptable repairs/replacements and are safety issues.
 
J Witt said:
I bought my car partly as an investment much restoration affects the "patina" to the point where value is reduced.

If I do things, such as painting suspension parts, have I hurt or enhanced the value of the car. Mind you, this isn't going to stop me from cleaning and painting parts or re-upholstering the seats, but I'm curious to know if there is any objective standard between original rusty barn find and 100 point restoration.

John
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Investment ha ha. You mean the kind that loses value?

The hype about original cars is mostly hype. The valuable original cars are the 1 in a million that is in very good condition and drivable for it's age. I have to have a laugh every time I hear the pickers raving about some rusty old piece of crap that is "original." Unless your car is near 100% original, drivable and retains most of its original paint I wouldn't worry about reducing its value by restoring it. I see Wayne Carini showing his 1954 preserved Studebaker as something rare and wonderful. Maybe, but 50s Studebakers aren't highly sought after so the value wouldn't be there in my book.
 
My 34 Fordor still mostly original paint except LR fender--Tops of front fenders are almost void of paint--Some spots on top where paint is so thin primer is showing--Still shines quite well--Lots of scratches and little dings all over the car--Drivers side rocker has a few holes and I assume passenger side is close to that--Most of interior is original--I am just amazed how people respond to the originality--I would not care to change anything other than keeping it drivable--When I get ready to part with the car I believe the buyer will appreciate getting an "original" as they are so hard to find in running condition anymore--I did not even think of the car as an investment, but just something to drive and enjoy--It has been so enjoyable--The waves, honks, thumb-ups, and compliments occur every time I take her out for a spin--I just put the car up on jack stands in my little heated shop for the winter--I will probably take a few "make believe" spins as I sit in the car on a cold snowy day waiting for spring--I feel the anticipation already!!
 
34fordy
You are right on, our 39 Mercury gets more comments and more attention at shows more often than our German 32. It does help that it is a very early Mercury (oct of 1938), Plus its just plain fun to drive and enjoy and not have to worry (if you will) about ever little possible damage or trouble.
 

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rockfla said:
34fordy
You are right on, our 39 Mercury gets more comments and more attention at shows more often than our German 32. It does help that it is a very early Mercury (oct of 1938), Plus its just plain fun to drive and enjoy and not have to worry (if you will) about ever little possible damage or trouble.
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Thanks rocfla,

Now if I can just find a 34 V8 pick-up in original condition I will be set for life!!!
Don
 
Don't think in terms of resale value, putting a dollar sign on a hobby, hell, play the stock market for your hobby and leave the collector cars to the car nuts. You'll not make more money than you put into it unless you're a wheeler dealer.
 
rockfla said:
34fordy
You are right on, our 39 Mercury gets more comments and more attention at shows more often than our German 32..
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That Merc looks great for it's age.As far as keeping a car original I think it is a personal preference , not so much a long tern investment. I doubt my old 52 Merc 4 door sedan will ever be a "collectible" but the fact that my dad bought it in 1959 and we rode everywhere in it for ten years makes it worth a lot to me. Just keeping it as original as possible. Obviously worn out brakes have to be fixed. New water pumps to keep it cool. Plus a newer seat upgrade makes it a reasonable driver and a ton of fun. Rust holes in lower body and down to primer paint on the roof but from a little distance, if I squint my eyes just a bit it could be the 1960s again.:)
 

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34fordy & rockfla, I'm with you guys on originals. The cars that really get the attention at most shows are the original Rouge Class cars and I am right there with the crowd checking them out. The highly/over restored cars are nice to glance at, but I can spend all day admiring the originals, and I could care less to debate which is more valuable.
 
Yea
Value is only established when the seller accepts the buyers offer and the money ACTUALLY changes hands
 
JM 35 Sedan said:
34fordy & rockfla, I'm with you guys on originals. The cars that really get the attention at most shows are the original Rouge Class cars and I am right there with the crowd checking them out. The highly/over restored cars are nice to glance at, but I can spend all day admiring the originals, and I could care less to debate which is more valuable.
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Yeah, like this '34 that Kube chased-after for eons and eons? DD

294803
 
JM35Sedan

I have a somewhat difficult time with the "Over Restored" term.....I have seen several factory photo's of V8's with some pretty exceptional paint jobs ie. marvelous reflective quality....Case in point (and I have tried to re-find it on facebook) but someone posted a picture of a Detroit Lions football player standing next to a 35 Sedan outside the Ford factory (from back in the day) and had it colorized and the finish on that sedan was just fabulous!!!! So I sometime wonder what "Over Restored" means????
 
@V8 Coopman

Yea there is a 33 just like that one I know of that I sure wish I could get a hold of!!!! Same kind of patina and all
 
I like unrestored, too, and the good thing is that hopefully you don't spend a lot of money to keep it that way! Now for mechanicals, I go for making it and keeping it right and safe, so fix the stuff that you don't really see and maintain what you do see! I have a 39 Fordor that is mostly original. Some repaint, but original interior and I like it that way.
 
I'm not sure about "restoration" as such. I have done a couple of Ts, one Model A, a Jeep and now I have this older restoration '36. The Ts and Jeep were body off, every single part worked on, restorations. They particularly had better paint jobs than the originals.

I always have liked to have my cars be as good looking as possible, but also have driving them as a primary object. To that end they all got "improvements" to make them safer and easier to drive. Mostly that seems to have paid off when it came to selling, probably because I have never sold to a person who is a collector.

I'm not really a car show person so that aspect of the hobby doesn't matter much to me and most of the people who look at our cars have no idea what they seeing anyway. However I can certainly understand the desire to have one's restoration be viewed by peers and approved.

The truth is, in many cases, I think the price paid at auction or at personal level is so widely variable that there's not much real data there, although Hagerty, for instance, makes it their business to know so they can avoid over-insuring cars. I suspect they get their info from ads and auctions.

I've always made a little money when selling a collector car, but nothing for my labor. I've done better in recent years by far than putting money in a bank and I just don't do stocks, having always lost in the market. That is all I mean by using the term "investment". BTW there was a gorgeous over-restored 1936 Cabriolet that sold recently at the Amelia Island auction for $125K, which is close to double any other one I've seen. Bet it doesn't get driven much.

Interesting thoughts from everyone. We seem mostly to be a pragmatic group.
 
rockfla said:
JM35Sedan

I have a somewhat difficult time with the "Over Restored" term.....I have seen several factory photo's of V8's with some pretty exceptional paint jobs ie. marvelous reflective quality....Case in point (and I have tried to re-find it on facebook) but someone posted a picture of a Detroit Lions football player standing next to a 35 Sedan outside the Ford factory (from back in the day) and had it colorized and the finish on that sedan was just fabulous!!!! So I sometime wonder what "Over Restored" means????
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To me, "Over Restored" simply means an attention to detail that would never have been done on a mass produced car. A level of perfection that was unobtainable on the assembly line, to the point of being incorrect and deserving of a point deduction on the Concourse. I understand that followers of this level of automotive perfection consider their creations to be what "Henry would have liked to build", and may consider the resulting point deduction as recognition of that effort. Just my humble opinion.
 
Scene 1: At a car event or on the street

Man on the street[MOTS} "Is your car original?"

Car Owner {CO)} "Yes, it is."

MOTS "You should restore it . They look better restored."

Scene 2 Same as 1

MOTS "Is your car restored?"

CO "Yes it is."

MOTS "You should have left it original. Original cars always look better."

I always ask "Do you own a collectible car."

If the answer is "Yes"

I say "Thanks for your opinion."

If the answer is "No."

My reply is usually unprintable, depend on the size or number or people there.
 
J Witt said:
So the question is, where do repairs stop and restoration begins, and how much restoration affects the "patina" to the point where value is reduced.


John
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"Patina" has to do with the car's finish, the effects of aging of its painted and plated surfaces. It has nothing to do with how much maintenance or restoration you have done to the rest of the car.
 
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