Brakes and kingpins! Fun stuff

MrTube

Well-known member
So tonight I finally jacked the front of the truck up to see what was going on. I have a slight amount of slop in the kingpins that were "just done". As everything else they were just done wrong. I'm assuming a little bit of slop in them isn't worth tearing them apart for?


With the brakes, I've read tons of things on how to adjust them and even watched a decent video on it.

Heres what I don't get.

Why would I want the back brakes to engage before the fronts? This does not seem logical, in fact it seems like it would give me a longer stopping distance in a panic stop because my rear wheels will be locked and dragging while I try to control / throttle the fronts.

The other thing I don't understand is why is there a complicated process in adjusting them. Is there any reason I can't adjust the brakes with the wheels in the air so they just start to rub on the drums without any pressure on the pedal and then back off one click? This should theoretically give me equal braking power to all 4 brakes.

Look forward to all responses.
 
Good Question, I would like that answer too.

I always tighten down shoe brakes tite, to center them, then back off till they barely touch. Done many without trouble, not Model A's though.

BTW.. I want all 4 engaging first. :)
 
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"Why would I want the back brakes to engage before the fronts?"

MrTube,
I have asked this myself and the only reason I can justify would be the 'roads' these cars were designed to cope with. Sure the car wouldn't stop as fast but it could be controlled (aimed) better in mud, dirt and gravel with the front wheels not locked up.


"The other thing I don't understand is why is there a complicated process in adjusting them."

Here is the reason I found. Back in the fifties I would adjust my brakes just as you said. Then I would complain that they didn't really work much better. I just adjusted my brakes last week according to the manual and was shocked at the difference. In my case I was trying to get more pedal rather than just a balance. As the brakes wear they require tightening, by doing this at the wheel only they are tighter but that tightness can't be utilized if the rods are not tightened to take advantage of the adjustment.
 
You have clearance between the brake shoes and drums, so you want that to be equal first. Then you have clearance in each of the brake rod pins and the length of the brake rods to worry about, so you lightly pull on each rod to pull the slack out, then adjust the end of the rod so the pin just pushes in. Then when you step on the brake pedal Henry wanted the rears to lock first so you could maintain control with the steering.

After you think the brakes and rods are correctly adjusted, it's nice to take it on a gravel or dirt road and see if the wheels lock evenly on the back left and right, then with more push of the brake pedal the fronts should lock evenly left and right. You can also just drive on any paved road, brake fairly hard and check for pull to one side. If it pulls to the right on braking, then you could loosen the right adjuster one click and try it again. You could also tighten the left one click, so it comes on quicker, but you don't want a constant drag from being too tight. An infrared temp gun is also handy for brake work, so you can check the temp of each drum after a few brake applications.

When I first bought my 28 Phaeton and drove it, I had to plan my stops about 2 blocks in advance. After fixing the missing emergency lining and adjusting the brakes, it now stops like a car should.
 
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We have an infrared thermometer luckily so i'll keep that in mind.

I have to admit maybe my memory is just going but I don't remember anything about adjusting the rods :\ Guess I'm getting old :(
 
The back brakes engage before the fronts to settle and balance the car. The cam mechanism in the rears has a different rate to the fronts. This allows the fronts to engage after the rears, but then engage quicker so in theory, they will lock at the same time or a little before the rears. If you don't follow the factory instructions, and add your own theory on adjustments, you will be forever complain about how bad model A brakes are and that you need floaters and hydraulics etc. They're not needed if factory instructions are followed. It's the size of the tyre on the road that truly limits the braking of the A.
 
So tonight I finally jacked the front of the truck up to see what was going on. I have a slight amount of slop in the kingpins that were "just done". As everything else they were just done wrong. I'm assuming a little bit of slop in them isn't worth tearing them apart for?

"It depends"... :p. Is the "slop" at the top and bottom of the knuckle, where the knuckle / wheel is rocking in & out at the top/bottom, or is the slop up & down vertical motion ( sliding up & down on the pin) ?

If it's rocking, that would be play in either between the bushings & pin, or the pin rocking in the axle itself (or both).

If it's vertical play, then you could take that out by adding hardened steel shim washers ( McMaster-Carr sells them).

In a perfect world, there should be "no play", but no binding either.

I don't know how much is "acceptable", but there's a "fair amount" of slop in the knuckles / pins on my '28 Coupe, and it's not scary-undriveable (that would have been my '41 De Soto before I rebuilt the front-end), nor are the tires wearing oddly.

If there's too much lost-motion, road shocks will cause the loose parts to "pound" against each other and things will wear quicker...




With the brakes, I've read tons of things on how to adjust them and even watched a decent video on it.

Heres what I don't get.

Why would I want the back brakes to engage before the fronts? This does not seem logical, in fact it seems like it would give me a longer stopping distance in a panic stop because my rear wheels will be locked and dragging while I try to control / throttle the fronts.

This is the way things were engineered from day one. Four-wheel brakes were still a relatively new feature in 1930, and most cars had the brake bias set-up to favor the rear wheels. The Ford was designed with 40% front / 60% rear brake bias. Part of the reasoning was that if the rear wheels locked but the fronts kept turning the driver would still having steering control of the vehicle; if the front wheels locked-up, they would no longer steer. Also, there was some concern that if the fronts locked-up, the vehicle might cartwheel.
All that said, most seasoned A-guys seem to favor keeping things the way Henry built it. Replace the worn parts, adjust everything correctly, and the brakes will work well.


The other thing I don't understand is why is there a complicated process in adjusting them. Is there any reason I can't adjust the brakes with the wheels in the air so they just start to rub on the drums without any pressure on the pedal and then back off one click? This should theoretically give me equal braking power to all 4 brakes.

Well, if they were hydraulic brakes, yes, you'd just go around to each wheel. This is because hydraulic brakes are "self-equalizing" : pressure applied to the pedal is evenly and instantly distributed to all four wheels.

Not necessarily the case with 80 year-old mechanical brakes. Pedal pressure operates the main brake rod, which in turn rotates the cross-shaft, which has levers at each end (two per side) which connect the pull-rods going to each wheel. At each wheel, there is a pin and clevis, brake shaft and bushings, then a cam or rod and operating wedge which actually spreads the brake shoes. That translates to a lot of opportunity for wear / slop, and lost -motion... and not the same amount to each wheel.

Yes, it's a fiddly process. About three months ago, the brakes were becoming really ineffective on my coupe. I finally resolved to dig into them and see what was really going-on. I found that the LF front brake was doing most of the work in stopping the car, followed by the LR, then the RR, and the RF was doing almost nothing at all.

I disconnected the rods at the wheels, and checked the position of the levers at the end of the cross-shaft, and adjusted the main rod until they were vertical. Then I went on to the front brakes.

On the fronts, the lever at the wheel is supposed to point "ahead" , to about 1 o' clock when things just contact the operating pin / wedge. My RF was all the way back at "11 o'clock before it operated the wedge / shoes.
I ordered two new operating pins and two sets of brake pin "pills" or shims.
I replaced an original pin on the RF, and had to add 1 pill to get things set-up properly. I suspect the brake shaft & bushings are worn too.
The brake tracks are quite worn as well.
Having the levers postioned correctly, I then went-on to adjust the showe clearance on the fronts, using the adjusting wedge at the top. I cranked them in until the wheel was locked hard, then backed-off 1 notch at a time until the wheel turned, and kept loosening until the wheel "spun freely" or with a hint of drag. When I was getting close, I made sure the adjuster was seated with the pins, rocking the wrench back & forth slightly: if the pins aren't seated in the grooves of the adjusting wedge, it can give you a false adjustment.

After all that, I checked each front wheel: spun it, then operated the lever, seeing that the wheel stopped when the lever hit vertical or so. At least things were improved to the point where both wheels seemed to have about the same braking effect.

I moved to the rear wheels. I don't have a hub puller, so I didn't yank the rear wheels. With the rods disconnected, the rear levers should be vertical, and there should be little or no lost-motion between the lever beginning to move, and the brake applying. Again, worn shaft /bushings and /or a worn cam will add-up to reduced braking efficiency.

I adjusted the rear shoes in the same manner as the fronts, checking the operation at each wheel by spinning the wheel / applying the lever, and confirming some braking activity at each rear wheel.

When connecting the rods to the levers at each wheel, the rods should be adjusted so that the clevis pin just slips-in. Don't put the cotters in just yet.

Now you go back to the brake pedal and try it out.. the pedal should move no more than about 1/2 way to the floor. According to the operator's manual, it should come no closer to the floor than 1 inch.

Now you get-out your pedal-jack, and set-it up so that the pedal is depressed one inch, and go check each wheel: the rears should be beggining to take-hold, the fronts should still spin fairly free. Adjust that the wedges as needed.

Now set the pedal jack to 2 inches down: the rears should be nearly locked, and the fronts should show significant drag.

This sets-up the basic front / rear brake bias.

Now you go drive the vehicle, applying the brakes and looking to see if it pulls to one side when you brake. A dirt / gravel road makes this a bit easier... you can easily see which wheels are locking-up or not... keep fiddling with the adjusting wedge on each wheel until you get a decnt balance between each side.

Once you've successfully gotten to this point, your brakes are properly "set-up", and the only attention needed will be at the adjusting wedges every couple hundred miles or so, depending on type of driving.

One more wrinkle: Ford brakes through 1948 were "fixed-anchor", as opposed to the (now) more common "floating", self-centering shoe found in Bendix and Delco-Moraine brakes. This means that the curvature or "arc" of the brake lining should match the curvature of the inside of the drum as closely as possible, for complete lining / drum contact.
This is done with a "brake shoe grinder". You could concieveably do it using sandpaper and the inside of each drum, using chalk on the lining to ID high-spots ( where the chalk rubs-off ), or find an old timer / model A guy that has a grinder and who will grind your shoes to match the drums.

I still need to go through my coupe's brakes and rebuild everything, but it's stopping a lot better after I went through things...


Look forward to all responses.


Check out my replies in blue above...
 
FWIW, the front operating pins come in different sizes from the suppliers. The club had a brake inspection/repair day last summer and could not get the RF correct. Finally found that pin was about 1/4" shorter than the left. Both were new pins, dont recall the supplier and may have been different suppliers. Check to be sure the pins are the same length. I guess pills could be used to build up the short ones to get the proper angle on the lever. Dont recall the measurement on the correct ones.
After nearly hitting a bicylist coming through an intersection and locking up the rears, I changed the adjusting balance to loosen the rears and tighten the fronts so they are about even in application without locking up, which nearly ends any braking effect. Seems to help although would really like to find a skid plate to test it under controlled conditions. I tell you though, those locked tires got that guy's attention real quick. No FU attitude that time.
 
Thanks for all of the responses. This is why I put the tools down early tonight before making assumptions.

The play in the kingpins is horizontal. At first I thought the wheel bearings needed adjusting, I was wrong.
 
The pin I removed from the RF on my car was about 1/8" to 3/16" shorter than the new pin I installed ( Brattons or Snyders, don't remember which ).

Not too long after I worked on my brakes I had to make a panic stop due to an ambulance that decided to turn on his lights and poke his way through an intersection against his traffic light... my rear tires let out quite the shriek, but the car stopped a good 10-15 feet short of the intersection...

Ambo driver just flashed a stupid grin, turned off his lights and kept poking along...
 
Heres what I don't get.

Why would I want the back brakes to engage before the fronts? This does not seem logical, in fact it seems like it would give me a longer stopping distance in a panic stop because my rear wheels will be locked and dragging while I try to control / throttle the fronts.

I don't get it either. Modern cars are set for the fronts to lock first, and I realize that there are differences between antique and modern cars, but the laws of physics still apply - weight transfer, traction, etc...

One thing to remember, is that one year before the introduction of the Model A, Ford didn't even HAVE front brakes. That was the current thinking.

When I get around to doing mine (have all the parts except the time), I'm going to do some tests.

Steve
 
Thanks for all of the responses. This is why I put the tools down early tonight before making assumptions.

The play in the kingpins is horizontal. At first I thought the wheel bearings needed adjusting, I was wrong.

If the top / bottom of the tire are deflecting more than 1/4" - 3/8" in & out, and you're certain it's not the wheel bearings, you might want to have a closer look at the king-pins / knuckles.

If the play is between the pin and the axle itself, make sure the locking pin is good and tight in the axle. AFAIK, the only solution to a worn axle bore is an oversized king-pin, or a better axle. Ran into this on a '55 Chevy Dump-Truck a couple years back.

Take your time with the brakes... they're kind of weird to a new-comer...(at least they were to me and my post-1940 vehicular experience)

When they're working properly, they're pretty good... and mine are probably only 50-60% of what they could be. Gonna work on that over the winter.

One of the issues I have to address is that I've shortened-up the rear rods as much as they'll go (rod has bottomed in the turn-buckle) , and it's not quite enough. Gotta get a hub puller and have a look inside those rear wheels.

Good luck !
 
INHO, I dont think a "little slop" in the king pins is OK. The tires and bushings will wear quicker, and shimmy will come back quicker, not to mention increased steering play. If the pins are new, the bushings were probably not properly reamed or sized.
As I think about what you said, if by "horizontal" you mean grabbing the front and rear of the tire and wiggling (instead of the top and bottom) you may have loose tie rod ends.
 
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As Mike said the problem with the kingpins may be the eye of the axle beam, not the bushings. This is usually caused by driving out the old pin with a hammer and punch, mushrooming the pin on its way out.A simple and cheap way to fix it is to stick an old pin in the eye, clamp it in place. Heat the eye red, tap all around the eye with a hammer while red hot. This will shrink the eye. Let it cool, remove the pin and you should have a nice tight fit.
 
INHO, I dont think a "little slop" in the king pins is OK. The tires and bushings will wear quicker, and shimmy will come back quicker, not to mention increased steering play. If the pins are new, the bushings were probably not properly reamed or sized.
As I think about what you said, if by "horizontal" you mean grabbing the front and rear of the tire and wiggling (instead of the top and bottom) you may have loose tie rod ends.

I agree totally. Any movement affect braking & steering.


With regard to modern brakes (hydraulic with proportioning valve) I agree that more bias to the front is better however back then, drivers were unlearned regarding panic stops. Add to that thought when you understand Ford's previously manufactured car did not come with any service brakes on ANY wheel (--front OR rear)!! I guess it is nothing new that a product manufacturer must build something to the capabilities of their consumer! :)


BTW, where are you going to purchase new Spindle Bolts (King Pins) if they are needed?

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I agree totally. Any movement affect braking & steering.


With regard to modern brakes (hydraulic with proportioning valve) I agree that more bias to the front is better however back then, drivers were unlearned regarding panic stops. Add to that thought when you understand Ford's previously manufactured car did not come with any service brakes on ANY wheel (--front OR rear)!! I guess it is nothing new that a product manufacturer must build something to the capabilities of their consumer! :)


BTW, where are you going to purchase new Spindle Bolts (King Pins) if they are needed?

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Don't know, I'd assume I'd buy them from Snyders?
The play / slop I see is by moving the tire back and forth on the top and bottom of the tire. This is how I know its not in the steering linkage. By horizontal I meant the spindles are moving left\right not up and down.

Looking at the edge of the tire, it moves around 1/4".
 
Mr. Tube:
Yep too excessive!!

As far as I know, these are out of production right now and have been for awhile. I think there were some coming in from India but my suppliers did not carry them and I have been told they have been withdrawn from the market.

I think it was mentioned above but if not, it is worth stating that you need to make sure the ¼ inch of play you are experiencing is not due to loose wheel bearings. If they are tight, then I concur with those who said the spindle bushings may have been improperly reamed. A Spindle Bolt Rebuild Kit is available from vendors, and you may be able to take your pins and grind them smooth on a lathe with a tool post grinder, and then have them honed at a machine shop on their machine that they fit piston wrist pins with.

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How were your spindle bushings brought to size?

A reamer will feel tight when done, but it leaves high spots. These high spots will wear rapidly leaving you with loose bushings.

The spindle bushing should be aligned honed to fit if you really want your bushings to stay tight.

I have run across differing ideas on the 60 40 brake issue.

Per "Know Your Model A Ford" by Murray Fahnstock page 79. The 40% front gives quick stopping and certainty of steering control.

Other discussions have lead to an idea that the rear cam does not advance the shoes as fast as the front wedge. So they need to start before the front. So as the pedal moved more the fronts would come on faster than the rear.

Later Ford went to all wedges on all wheels.

What is the real answer, I do not know.

What is known fact. The brakes work great if you take the time and effort to carefully assemble them with good new parts. The shoes must be arced to the diameter of the drum and centered. You want all 168 square inches of shoe doing their job
 
How were your spindle bushings brought to size?

A reamer will feel tight when done, but it leaves high spots. These high spots will wear rapidly leaving you with loose bushings.

The spindle bushing should be aligned honed to fit if you really want your bushings to stay tight.

How they were reamed I don't know. But when I asked the guy who did them it sounded wrong to me.

It seemed like he reamed them one at a time rather then the pair together so they line up correctly. I don't know what he used to ream them. He is a machinist and likely made up a tool.

Unfortunately though he is a good guy and does some work good, I've found many many things he has done wrong, or rushed.

Wheel bearings seem good. I just pulled the drum off last night and checked to make sure everything looked good. Then put it back together and tightened the nut until all movement was gone in the bearing. I also watched the knuckle move as a friend moved the wheel. :(

Speaking of the wheel bearings, it appears there is only 1 hole for the cotter pin on the A? Made it a bit harder to get the adjustment perfect as opposed to newer cars that have two off set holes.


Brent, Snyders says they have them on the site.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/468
 
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