Engine locked up

so with either problem the engine will turn backwards and you still will not know what is wrong.

then if it was hydrolocked and you hit the starter you will now slam the piston up against the water and bend the rod. Now you have 2 problems instead of one.

what could be easier than pulling 4 spark plugs
 
If the problem is hydro locking and it happened when engine was not going eg overnight....... would any water drip into the scupper trays or the valve chamber etc..ready to be pulled into engine via oil pump or scooped up by conrod scuppers if engine is turned over.?

Then if the oil/water was drained and head removed and , say, it was found to be a simple head gasket blow, or maybe even just needed a head tighten and fill with fresh oil and see what happens, again along as engine has not been turned over, would this get all water out of future oil circulation just by dropping it out of sump plug ?

I suppose the question is, if there is water found in sump from an overnight leak, is it imperative that the pan be removed because it must be in the scupper trays ?
 
tbirdtbird said:
so with either problem the engine will turn backwards and you still will not know what is wrong.

then if it was hydrolocked and you hit the starter you will now slam the piston up against the water and bend the rod. Now you have 2 problems instead of one.

what could be easier than pulling 4 spark plugs
Click to expand...

I agree and would start by pulling the 4 spark plugs and cracking the drain plug. For the oil to go overfull overnight the coolant must have leaked into the pan, and probably came past the pistons. I wouldn't worry about turning the engine until any coolant is out of the pan and dip tray, then you can put the car in high gear and push it forward.

Remember, you want forward motion so the flywheel spins the Bendix rearward and out of engagement.
 
Hi Guys,

as a Newbie I would like to know if the coolant level has changed in the radiator? If the engine is stuck from water, it should be missing somewhere.

Next question:

If the head gasket is blown or the block cracked and internal water leaks are likely, you should find water in the oil or vice versa?. This COULD explain the oil level because th water sits down in the oil pan.

Good luck
Gerald
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
I agree and would start by pulling the 4 spark plugs and cracking the drain plug. For the oil to go overfull overnight the coolant must have leaked into the pan, and probably came past the pistons. I wouldn't worry about turning the engine until any coolant is out of the pan and dip tray, then you can put the car in high gear and push it forward.

Remember, you want forward motion so the flywheel spins the Bendix rearward and out of engagement.
Click to expand...

Tom, to do this, you have to put the transmission in reverse and push forward or use high and push rearward to reverse the rotation of the engine. This will unlock the starter.
 
I am getting the impression that many posters are unfamiliar with the concept of hydrolocking. And a proper diagnosis must account for all of the findings, not just one.

Start with the principle that a liquid cannot be compressed.

we worked on a very expensive diesel out of a Mack truck years ago that had hydrolocked. Not only was the rod bent (wish I had a pic; very impressive that a rod could bend 40°), AND the rod journal on the crank was torqued. Meaning a very expensive crank was totally destroyed.....that type of problem cannot be repaired and if you try to use the crank the motor will never run right no matter what you do

we are 4 plugs away from knowing what really happened. If the OP waits too long to pull the plugs the water will gradually seep past the rings into the crankcase and there will be none to be found when he pulls the plugs. And the saga will never end because who knows what step will be skipped then
 
I had a cracked head that allowed water into the oil enough to emulsify. After repair & reassembly I wondered how the trays looked. I did not want to remove the pan because I just got it leak free. Removing the oil filler tube allowed access to #1 & #2 cylinder trays. I vacuumed the emulsified oil out through the opening. What ever water remained quickly evaporated. My oil is clear. No sign of water after a month of nearly daily use.
Hugh
 
James Rogers said:
Tom, to do this, you have to put the transmission in reverse and push forward or use high and push rearward to reverse the rotation of the engine. This will unlock the starter.
Click to expand...

James, no, you want the engine to over run the drive, which means the engine turns in the normal direction, but turns faster than the starter. This will happen when you push the car forward in high gear (high gear for the best mechanical advantage).

When the engine starts on each normal start, the same thing happens. The engine fires up and the speed of the ring gear teeth is faster than the starter pinion teeth, so it speeds up the pinion and winds it back out of engagement. Of course the drive will grind if the operator doesn't stop cranking the starter as soon as the engine fires up.
 
VFRhugh said:
I had a cracked head that allowed water into the oil enough to emulsify. After repair & reassembly I wondered how the trays looked. I did not want to remove the pan because I just got it leak free. Removing the oil filler tube allowed access to #1 & #2 cylinder trays. I vacuumed the emulsified oil out through the opening. What ever water remained quickly evaporated. My oil is clear. No sign of water after a month of nearly daily use.
Hugh
Click to expand...

I had a cracked head once...it still hurts if I wear my hat to tight.

Seriously though...I'm following this post 'cause I'm curious as hell...water...no water,,,damn, the suspense is kill'n me
 
Tom Wesenberg said:
James, no, you want the engine to over run the drive, which means the engine turns in the normal direction, but turns faster than the starter. This will happen when you push the car forward in high gear (high gear for the best mechanical advantage).

When the engine starts on each normal start, the same thing happens. The engine fires up and the speed of the ring gear teeth is faster than the starter pinion teeth, so it speeds up the pinion and winds it back out of engagement. Of course the drive will grind if the operator doesn't stop cranking the starter as soon as the engine fires up.
Click to expand...
If that were true, you should be able to turn the engine with the hand crank to free the starter. I will guarantee you, if the starter is stuck, you will NOT be able to turn the engine in the normal direction, it has to turn backwards to release the Bendix. Being locked is not like when the engine starts normally. Just try to turn a motor the normal direction that has the starter locked. I have observed this problem on my start-up stand with the Bendix exposed and I can assure you I am correct.
 
Well I tried the easy way first. Removed the plugs and found number 3 was full of water. Next I drained a lot of water and the oil from pan. Removed head and got all water out of the intake and pistons. This is a "c" head and I see some brazing thats been done close to the center bolt hole. My questions are, do I need to remove the pan and clean any water that may be in the baffle or just add oil and run a little and change the oil? Do I need to have the head cleaned and magnifluxed for possable leak? I ordered a new head gasket when I installed the head and wander if I got an incorrect one as I didn't let supplier know I had a "c" head. Again any help will be great. Ron
 
Don't half a$$ it- drop the pan, clean it good, pull the head, check for flatness/cracks, clean the cylinders.
 
Can you post picture of your C head?
I'd ditch a head that had brazing and has leaked into the engine, and I'd buy the 5.5 higher compression head.
 
I agree with Tom. Don't waste time with a faulty head. I'd get a new higher compression head. It will make you smile when you start it next time. Ron W
 
ron103140 said:
Well I tried the easy way first. Removed the plugs and found number 3 was full of water. Next I drained a lot of water and the oil from pan. Removed head and got all water out of the intake and pistons. This is a "c" head and I see some brazing thats been done close to the center bolt hole. My questions are, do I need to remove the pan and clean any water that may be in the baffle or just add oil and run a little and change the oil? Do I need to have the head cleaned and magnifluxed for possable leak? I ordered a new head gasket when I installed the head and wander if I got an incorrect one as I didn't let supplier know I had a "c" head. Again any help will be great. Ron
Click to expand...

Tbird and I were positive that was the case based on your diagnosis..

OK, here is what you should do next:

Yes, you have to drop the oil pan. You should also take the valve cover off the side of the block and clean that out.

Get rid of that head. Hang it on the wall as a trophy!

If you buy the 5.5 head from Snyder's, you will be very pleased. This will also require a new water pump since a C head uses 3 bolts instead of 4. The good news is, if you sell your C water pump on eBay, it will likely bring in enough money to cover your new A water pump plus a good portion of the cost of the A head.

The head gasket should be chosen based on the bore or overbore of your cilynders. Also, if your block has been decked to the point that the pistons stick up well over the top of the block at TDC, that is also a consideration.

The good news is, you are not the first Model A owner who has experienced this. Several of us here have been through it and are eager to help you get back on the road.
 
Ron W said:
I agree with Tom. Don't waste time with a faulty head. I'd get a new higher compression head. It will make you smile when you start it next time. Ron W
Click to expand...

and buy your gasket from "Best Gasket Co."....and you will be very very happy with the high comp, head!
 
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