Crank and rod bearing fitting question

*Text below quote
V


*Mr Kohnke... I stand by my findings exactly as stated. Purchasing fresh soft plastigage did indeed give an accurate read on my 1" mike or I wouldn't print it here. As well, the fresh plastigage worked perfectly on my bearings ... while the old hard stuff had failed to flatten.
5 minutes of google searching has just turned up numerous warnings about the shelf life of plastigage.
...I invite you to look.
As well, I've posted here Clevite's (the manufacturers) full data sheet cautioning one to clean all oil from the shaft. The picture is small, so you'll have to transfer & enlarge it if you want to read the instructions.
*Also I've added a link.
I should add...it's doubtfull that instructions for something this critical would leave ANY steps to assumption as you imply.

Mr Kohnke I'm not bothered so much with your suggestion that I'm making this up as I go along....not as much as I'm alarmed by your missinformation being further missunderstood & leading to the potential failure of a student's engine.
I mean what if someone reads your posting & oils the ENTIRE bearing surface before placing the gauge down & ends up with far too much clearance?
Or shall we assume every student should know that?
I think if you purchase some fresh plastigage you'll indeed find it works dry as the manufacturer's data instructs...and you can stop adding oil to soften it.
While you're at it, check the FRESH plastigage with a good micrometer & I think you'll find it reads exact.
LINK to instructions http://www.3sx.com/store/faq/plastigage/index.asp


Well Craig, I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers to bad, to the point of having them fall out around your tail area. I keep mine numbered for just such an occasion. In the first place, checking Plastigauge with a Mic. for size will be .003, on a .001 to .003 piece, with out oil, if you tried to compress it, as you said, you turned your Mic. to .001, and you got a reading of .002-50, you made my point exactly. With out oil, the plastigauge hangs on to the dry surface, an won't let it spread to its full potential under any given pressure. As far as what it is made of, you think it is wax, I don't know, but it seams to me seems to me if it was wax, that they would have called it Waxygauage!! When Plastigauge came out in our area years ago, I bought a box, and it had the same instructions with the box that I see posted here, they were not in the box, but a set came with the box when you bought some, they had them on the counter, so you could read them. Well I took the Plastigauge home, and I had just got done with an Air Cooled Franklin, 1914, I knew what I had for clearance in the Tobin-Arp, align Bore, by using a Post Mic., and an out side mike, and that was right to the 1/10th of a thousands, well I laid a piece on each main bearing, 9 in all, WITH OUT OIL, CLEAN, DRY, AND SHINY, I torque wrenched each main cap, and then removed the caps, WOW my first thought, THIS S. DON'T WORK, so i called Vern, an engine rebuilder in Fort Dodge, and he had had the same trouble, the first time, Arnold Motors, they have about 77 machine shops, so he called the head office machine shop, and they said simply, use 30W oil. What I got, as many have said on the Barn, that the Plastigauge goes into the babbitt, I don"t think it spread out at all, that is when I found out that lacquer thinner works for removal of Plastigauge. Well now I had brand new oil wells in the caps, with out trying, wouldn't hurt anything, but not what I was after. So I got my oil can, which always has 30W oil in them, oiled the cap, and shaft, put the plastigauge in off to the other side, and this time it came out where it should have been. Craig, common sense will kick in on you some day. I have looked at my original post, I don't seem to be able to find where I was suggesting you make stuff up as you go along??? As far as my missinformation about how much oil to put on a cap, and oil the whole cap, the only harm that does is wast oil, and makes a mess, to drip in your eyes, I guess that is why that when Star-Bucks sells you a hot cup of coffie,, they have to worn the public in general, that you might get burnt. Like I said, do not read the cap, read the shaft, as there is still a chance of it sinking in to the babbitt. As far as checking some new Plastigauge, we always have new stuff, as we use it many times a week, and for many years, how often do you use it Craig?? I will say, I don't care at all what anybody does, Guy's, I am not trying to convince anybody, of anything, as it does not butter my bread, It works for me, as we don't have room or time for a bad bearings, and have never had one in 42 years, but we will always fight to keep the first time away. thanks Herm.
 
I tried saving that Clevite pic, but it is too blurry when I enlarge it on the screen. Is it a scan or is it from the internet. If from the internet, could you post the link? If a scan, I'll PM you my e-mail address if you'll send me your scan file.

When I use the stuff it would stick to the journal. Maybe I didn't clean the babbit as carefully. I plan to toss my old Plastigage.


Bruce, Plastigauge is supposed to stick to the shaft, and the cap, the shaft is where you should gauge it at, as it can still make marks in the babbitt, and give you a larger clearance then what you have. It will stick on the shaft, and the cap, dry, or oiled. Herm.
 
I am sure Herm has used plastigage more times in a year than I will ever use in my life time. I have learned much from Herm's comments as well as others who replied in this thread. I now have information which I feel will give the success with plastigage that I did not have before.

I am checking the crank and connecting rod bearing clearances on my A this winter. Question - I do not have a heated shop, "Is there a temperature range plastigage must be used within?"


Real good question Ron, all that I do know, a crank shaft will shrink from cold, as much as it will expand from heat, what happens to the bearing shell, I don't know. Maybe one of the Guys Know. Thanks Herm.
 
Re Plastigauge usable temp, the pdf file link in Ron/IA's post says "Plastigage remains usable and accurate through all normal atmospheric variations of temperature and humidity in work areas where bearing clearances may be checked." That's kinda vague, but I would guess that it means it would work if you can stand the weather.
 
Mr. Kohnke...no ruffled feathers here. I can see the problem you would have with plastigage sinking into soft babbit & understand the oil helping it slide better. I've done very little work with babbit and clearly stated in my initial post I was working with insert brgs.
I wouldn't have experianced this "sinking in" as insert shells have a hard backing.
I can see your advice applying better to this man's problem as he IS using babbit.
Never the less my old hard plastigage did not work and the new soft product did. Dry.
I don't follow your implication that the ENTIRE journal could be oiled and still expect an accurate reading of the brg. clearance though. Wouldn't this oil film present a measurable clearance of .001 or more... pushing the journal closer to the plastigage?
Engines are not my everyday job although I've rebuilt a few dozen over the years with no real troubles, but have learned plenty the hard way. As with any job, experiance speaks volumes but I've found if you can study a few good books and have the correct manual on hand (a GOOD manual) putting an engine together doesn't have to be all that hard.
It's been a long day...will check in later and hope this pi$$ing match is wrapped up. Cheers!:)
 
Mr. Kohnke...no ruffled feathers here. I can see the problem you would have with plastigage sinking into soft babbit & understand the oil helping it slide better. I've done very little work with babbit and clearly stated in my initial post I was working with insert brgs.
I wouldn't have experianced this "sinking in" as insert shells have a hard backing.
I can see your advice applying better to this man's problem as he IS using babbit.
Never the less my old hard plastigage did not work and the new soft product did. Dry.
I don't follow your implication that the ENTIRE journal could be oiled and still expect an accurate reading of the brg. clearance though. Wouldn't this oil film present a measurable clearance of .001 or more... pushing the journal closer to the plastigage?
Engines are not my everyday job although I've rebuilt a few dozen over the years with no real troubles, but have learned plenty the hard way. As with any job, experiance speaks volumes but I've found if you can study a few good books and have the correct manual on hand (a GOOD manual) putting an engine together doesn't have to be all that hard.
It's been a long day...will check in later and hope this pi$$ing match is wrapped up. Cheers!:)


Well Craig, the way I see it, the oil should, or I think would squeeze out, and would not be a problem for the Plastigauge to do its job, as I don't think the bearing could contain it, but it really does make a unneeded mess. AS I have said, I already knew what the bearing clearance was with, the post Mic.so when I used the oil, to let it spread, it came as close as a piece of Plastigauge paper could. You are sure right about the manuals, they are enviable. Thanks Craig, Herm.
 
Don't be too hasty to trust plastigauge.
Assuming you're using the green .001 -.003 do this...
Find a 1" micrometer, carefully zero it, then lay the plastigage across the anvil and tighten it down to .001
Measure the flattened product now with the paper gauge and don't be surprised if it reads as much as .0025
I learned this the hard way when fitting inserts bearings.
My final conclusion is the stuff must harden with age and doesn't squish out properly.
Good fresh plastigage should be very soft...I think it's wax. Even though you might have bought it an hour ago...there's no telling how long it sat on the shelf.
I'd suggest take your micrometer to the store and buy what measures up.

Craig would that not give you .00125 clearance all the way around the journal. sounds about right to me.
 
Craig would that not give you .00125 clearance all the way around the journal. sounds about right to me.

Yes I agree George. It would be a good(close)fit for the rod journals.
Perhaps safer with a smidge more on the mains though....especially with gravity feed dontchathink?
I followed a benchmark of .001" clearance per inch of journal diameter and used inside & out micrometers for the initial testing & fitting.
Using plastigage was my final test and I recall my hair standing on end when I saw the results using that old hard stuff!
It sounds (now) like some oil would have made it behave. The fresh stuff gave me a dead-on reading. :)
 
I have used plastigage for years, never used oil and have never had a problem. Oil could affect the indicated clearance especially thicker oil.

Craig, are you sure that you are reading the correct inch side? The reverse side of my plastigage is scaled in millimeters. It would be easy to make this mistake.

.001 = .025 millimeters

If the reading was actually .0025" the plastigage would either have to overpower the rigidity of the mic or the plastigage had some resiliency and sprang back. A .001" clearance on an accurate mic is .001".
 
Last edited:
Craig would that not give you .00125 clearance all the way around the journal. sounds about right to me.

But the clearance is not measured all the way around, or radially. It is measured as a difference in diameter. 0.00125" clearance all the way around is a total of 0.0025" clearance, or one thou too much.

Joe
 
I have used plastigage for years, never used oil and have never had a problem. Oil could affect the indicated clearance especially thicker oil.

Craig, are you sure that you are reading the correct inch side? The reverse side of my plastigage is scaled in millimeters. It would be easy to make this mistake.

.001 = .025 millimeters

If the reading was actually .0025" the plastigage would either have to overpower the rigidity of the mic or the plastigage had some resiliency and sprang back. A .001" clearance on an accurate mic is .001".

I would find it very hard to make that mistake Larry. My eyesight is good so far. I passed math & can even count back change from a dollar:D
 
I would find it very hard to make that mistake Larry. My eyesight is good so far. I passed math & can even count back change from a dollar:D


I'm not concerned with your eyesight; it's your brain. ;0)

Try a piece of the older plastigage in the mic and let it set for awhile before backing the mic off and see if it flattens more than before.

Like I said, that mic distance is .001 on an inch and any yieldable material crushed between the mic surfaces has to be at .001 of an inch as well while it's in that position. It has no choice. Afterwards, if the plastigage does not spread out properly then it either sprang back somewhat or the mic distance did not hold at a .001".
 
Last edited:
I'm not concerned with your eyesight; it's your brain. ;0)

What about concerning yourself with Heads instead of brains Larry?

I binned the old brittle plastigage.
I should really never throw stuff away...now there's no evidence & you guys win.:rolleyes:
Can I go home now?
 
Last edited:
But the clearance is not measured all the way around, or radially. It is measured as a difference in diameter. 0.00125" clearance all the way around is a total of 0.0025" clearance, or one thou too much.

Joe


Most engines that I have worked on have .001-.003 clearance. Or close to .003.
 
Last edited:
I would find it very hard to make that mistake Larry. My eyesight is good so far. I passed math & can even count back change from a dollar:D

I'm not concerned with your eyesight; it's your brain. ;0)

What about concerning yourself with Heads instead of brains Larry?

I binned the old brittle plastigage.
I should really never throw stuff away...now there's no evidence & you guys win.:rolleyes:
Can I go home now?


Sorry, Craig, I merely returned your cocky response with one myself (and added this symbol, ;0) to show it in jest). You added a symbol as well but in this part of Texas we call a toothy smile like that, "grinnin' like a 'possum eatin' sh*t"

Now I see you've added another cocky response. I was only trying to help.
 
Last edited:
Sorry, Craig, I merely returned your cocky response with one myself (and added this symbol, ;0) to show it in jest). You added a symbol as well but in this part of Texas we call a toothy smile like that, "grinnin' like a 'possum eatin' sh*t"

Now I see you've added another cocky response. I was only trying to help.

That's what I like about these forums...everybody just trying to help:)
Still no ruffled feathers here guys.....although I DO find the transgression from cars parts -to human bodyparts -and now the consumption of excretement.....to be off topic & a road I'd rather not go down.
We could go on forever with testing & pictures & proving of points, except I've found there's more than one correct answer to most challenges so carry on as you wish but I'm done.
I'll go brush my teeth and thanks again for helping me help.
:)
 
Back
Top