Radiator overflow

dan

dan

Senior Member
All,

New radiator (Brassworks) with a 180 degree t-stat. Motor flushed prior to install of radiator, running 50/50 water and antifreeze.

Friday on my way home, the temp gauge read 205 at the last light before my house. Pulled into the garage and found coolant pooled below the front motor mount--apparently from the overflow. Had to add 1-1/4 gallons :eek: to the radiator to get it back to the baffles. I've checked all the hose clamps and it does look like at the overflow is the only place coolant is exiting.

When I refilled the radiator and ran the car in the garage to check on leaks, during the five minutes I had it running, I lost a lot more coolant. More than I would guess could be explained by the coolant seeking it's own level as I've heard older and wiser heads mention. When I plugged the overflow tube at the top, the coolant level rose to the top of the neck (plus some) and overflowed.

Aside from the new radiator and the t-stat, everything's the same: same water pump, etc. I don't think from these symptoms it could be a stuck thermostat, and I don't see how it could be a cracked block--since I'm losing so much water out the overflow (wouldn't exhaust gases just go out the top instead of displacing a gallon and a quarter of water?) Compression on all four is dead even at 75 lbs, so its not the head or head gasket.

Thoughts, opinions, or advice?
 
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The statement you made about water seeking its own level was the first thing
that came to my mind, but you already covered that. I keep my water level so
low that I can't see it. In fact, I check it with a battery filler by aiming the nozzle all the
way to the left to the top of the baffle at an angle. If I can suck water into the
bulb I know I have enough water. It works fine for me, never runs over 185-190.
I do not use a thermostat. JMHO

Jack
 
T-stat installed backwards?? The brass sensing element should face the head, not the radiator. You do have a 1/8" bleed hole in it? Have you tested it in a pan with a thermometer to see that it opens at ~180? Is the water pump impeller pinned to the pump shaft? They have been known to come loose. Ignition properly advanced? Retarded = HOT.
 
Dan,

Funny you should ask this question! I installed my new Brass-Works radiator in my '31 Roadster about a month ago. It's the dimpled-fin, 6 fin-per-inch version. I'm having almost the exact same problem. I fill it with 50/50 right to the level of the baffle and after an hour or so of driving the LH splash pan and front cross-member have coolant sprinkled all over them near the outlet of the overflow tube.

It isn't overheating and there are no visible leaks in my hoses or anywhere on the tadiator!

When I installed the new radiator I removed my 160 deg. t-stat to be "absolutely sure" I'd never again have the nasty over-heating problems I had with my old, tired, semi-clogged original radiator on warm days.

Soooo...I'm just guessing that the new Brass-Works radiator likes its own coolant level way below what I'm use to seeing in other A radiators.

If it were a matter of the Brass-Works total tube flow area being inadequate for the flow rate of the water pump, then practically ALL of the coolant would get pumped overboard and that ain't happening.

Still, your need to add 1 1/2 gallons seems like an awful lot. To bring mine back up to the baffle it takes about 1/2 gallon.

We'll see what happens when warm days return with this new low collant level it seems to prefer. I'm going to continue driving her through the winter without adding any more collant and see if a "happy, steady-state level" is reached and the overflow stops - and no overheating occurs.

Any comments from other Brass-Works customers? Are any Brass-Works folks listening in??

Earle
 
Driving to Brass works tomorrow to have them make me a custom radiator for my 27 roadster with a shortened 32 shell. Running a flathead. I also notice my beater A pickup likes to puke water when i first fill it to the top and finds it own level about two inches down. Sounds like thats the norm for these old A,s.
 
I understand that both of your radiators are new. What is the orientation of the overflow tube? How high in the neck is the o/flow tube?
Paul in CT
 
Thanks for all the advice/opinions. More info:

Last night I pulled the t-stat and ran the car in the garage for about five minutes. Having re-filled the radiator--to the baffles--there was some coolant coming out the overflow which I put down to expansion. I drove around a bit (including a short stint on the expressway) and it never went over 170 in the 20 minutes I was out. Of course, this was a cool Fall evening.

When I got back, it was down less than a quart. This morning on the way in to work, it also never got over 170, so it could be that the t-stat was bad--though I find it odd that a brand-new stat should get stuck shut; aren't they most likely to stick open? Maybe I'll boil it on the stove tonight, when the wife's not looking, and see if it is working at all.
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Side question: how many of you have a set of cooking stuff (cookie trays, pots, etc) to use when "cooking" parts--to keep your wife from chasing you around the kitchen with a steak knife when you use her "good" pots and pans? :D
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It's supposed to warm up some this week into the 80s or so and I'll wait and see how it does when it's warmer outside. If it's still loosing copious amounts of coolant, I'll be back with more questions :)
 
Benson said:
Please check this thread.
Post #7 (right side to find post number.

All posts are helpful in this thread but 7 and 12-17 are of note.

# 7 the Benson and Mike V posting gets to meat of the problem.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6524&highlight=benson

It is amazing to me that new radiators and recores are still being manufactured with this problem.
Click to expand...

You're right--the overflow is in the center and straight up. That's something I'll have to remedy. Thanks!

Any advice on how to bend it without kinking?
 
On how to bend it back without kinking it start with a phillips screw driver that fits in the in the tube. Work the screwdriver up as you bend the tube back. Won't be as pretty as in Mike V's diagrams but it works.
 
dan said:
Side question: how many of you have a set of cooking stuff (cookie trays, pots, etc) to use when "cooking" parts--to keep your wife from chasing you around the kitchen with a steak knife when you use her "good" pots and pans? :D
Click to expand...

Funny you should ask. Yesterday the wife said to me "The oven timer is beeping. I think your powder coat parts are done." Fair is fair. She puts stuff in the garage fridge, wasting valuable beer space.
 
I wrinkle finished the piston barrells to my old harley. I did it in the oven when the wife was gone. She came home later and said. "what the hell did you put in my oven?" That was 26 years ago. I have not been served dinner since. She sure knows how to hold a grudge.
 
Benson, thanks so much for your comments. That HAS to be the problem!

The top end of the overflow tube in my new Brass Works Radiator is all the way toward the front of the filler neck (but not quite under the lip) and one inch below the top of the rim (seems kinda low).

And thanks, 30Tudor, for the "phillips screwdriver anti-kinking" suggestion.

Brass Works - Are you folks listening?!

I'm going to bend the tube per the S.B. and do some more road testing.

Yes, it bothers me too that new manufacturers like Brass Works, given what they charge for these babies, are NOT making sure that the intent of the applicable Ford Service Bulletins are incorporated in their designs! They're just delivering built-in problems for their customers. They make such great quality Radiators and this would be such an easy detail to correct!

Earle
 
Snyders talks about how their new pumps will over run a new radiator and the fins on their pumps (as I'm sure the fins on anyone's pumps) need to be ground down. This is from their website:

Here is the link: http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/uploads/A8591SSZSSBWaterPumpkitInstructions-4924.pdf

If you have an original radiator on your model A, you can use the shaft/impeller assembly the way they are.
If you have a repo radiator you will need to grind or file some of the props on the impeller. There are 3 props on the impeller that pump the water. We recommend grinding or filing down 1/3 of each of the 3 props. This will slow down the pumping rate of the pump. The reason is that repo radiators are much more efficient than the original radiators. Repo radiators are more efficient because they have smaller tubes to dispense the heat. Consequently they can not handle the same flow rate as original radiators.
Click to expand...
 
I wonder if the problem due to centered overflow tube is just with 30-31 models? I've got a fairly new Brassworks on my 29 and it seems to be OK. As you can see in the picture, overflow is close to center.

Steve
 

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A few weeks ago, I bought a new leakless pump from Snyders and am using it with a new 10 fin-per-inch Brassworks radiator. I opted not to grind the impellers as Snyders recommended in their instructions. I've put over 600 miles on both and have not had any overflow once it finished "seeking it's level".

When I received my radiator, the overflow tube was centered in the neck and I couldn't close my Moto-Meter cap. I simply inserted a phillips screwdriver and gently bent it back enough to close the cap. Nothing drastic. Everything is working great.
 
steve s said:
I wonder if the problem due to centered overflow tube is just with 30-31 models? I've got a fairly new Brassworks on my 29 and it seems to be OK. As you can see in the picture, overflow is close to center.

Steve
Click to expand...

Steve, the point is that the upper end of the overflow should NOT be centered. It should be about as far to the rear as it will go, even to the point of being under the lip at the top of the neck.

I had to bend the overflow on the new radiator I got from Bratton's 3-4 years ago which I was told was a Brassworks radiator.

Joe
 
JoeWay said:
Steve, the point is that the upper end of the overflow should NOT be centered. It should be about as far to the rear as it will go, even to the point of being under the lip at the top of the neck.

I had to bend the overflow on the new radiator I got from Bratton's 3-4 years ago which I was told was a Brassworks radiator.

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

I understand that the point of the modification is to un-center the overflow. My point was, might the geometry of the 28-29 and 30-31 setups be significantly different? What I am trying to understand is whether everyone needs to worry about it.

The exerpt from page 450 of the Service Bulletins that MikeK included in the earlier thread recommends bending the tube AND sealing the hole in the baffle with a washer, which would appear to apply ONLY to the old style, flat baffle. To my eye, the flat baffle appears roughly perpendicular to incoming flow from water pump, inviting coolant to be thrown up directly along side of the overflow tube.

Although it is not completely clear from the info provided, my inference is that the fix is not needed with the new curved baffle. The hole in the curved baffle does not appear to be square on maximizing straight-shot flow from the pump flow, like the earlier style did. Since the washer part of the fix would not even be possible on the curved surface, I am left wondering whether Ford thought that the problem was totally solved by the curved baffle. It would be odd to describe a fix for obsolete equipment at the same time you are announcing a new improved model if the new model didn't obviate the need for the fix.

When I first got my Brassworks radiator, I immediately worried about that big hole in the baffle for the overflow tube. When I asked about it on Fordbarn, everyone encouraged me not to worry about it.

Steve
 
Had same problem w/my 31. Skip(since removed) was nice enough to walk me thru the s/bulletin and talk about rad cap and quail gaskets. At a show this summer I was talking to other A owners and one showed me he had added a short piece of gas hose to top of o/flow tube to bring it right to bottom of rad cap when installed.I was unable to "form" my o/flow tube to get it under the lip at the top of the neck.
Paul in CT
 
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