Who Done That?

R

rfitzpatrick

Well-known member
Who built the equipment/machinery that build this era cars? Who designed even the small parts? I can't find much about that, but I find that era interesting, even the Stock Market was exciting. I don't mean just the Fords -- Everything!! All the accessories too. That era will never be duplicated, making what's considered today -- simply Tecknowledge
 
How they machined the body stamping dies would be interesting. Did they rough machine them on a mill, then use files and grinders smooth them? Did, say, fenders need intermediate steps to reach the final shape? I assume now that the dies are cnc machined.
 
Yes it was a different time. Shoes, watches, early kitchen utensils, automobiles, farming implements ..... all of it. There was lots of designing and trial and error in cold damp garages all around our country. A friend of mine has an antique brass cash register circa 1900 and inside has more moving parts with gears, levers and cog-wheels that all move instantaneously when the dollar keys are pressed. That was genius. Not trying to lessen all the modern electronic advancements, but hey, those boys 100 years ago had pencil and paper and no calculators to work out the mathematics. Genius.
 
al's28/33 said:
Yes it was a different time. Shoes, watches, early kitchen utensils, automobiles, farming implements ..... all of it. There was lots of designing and trial and error in cold damp garages all around our country. A friend of mine has an antique brass cash register circa 1900 and inside has more moving parts with gears, levers and cog-wheels that all move instantaneously when the dollar keys are pressed. That was genius. Not trying to lessen all the modern electronic advancements, but hey, those boys 100 years ago had pencil and paper and no calculators to work out the mathematics. Genius.
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Until I retired, I was a land surveyor and trained in the early 70s when there was no such thing as even a four function calculator. Some of our Astronomical and Geodetic calculations took pages with nothing more than either a slide rule or 7 figure logarithms (or a combination) to assist. Later in my training, mechanical adding machines became available. They were incredibly complex mechanical devices that we soon took for granted. IMO, the guys who invented them were genii.
Then there are Theodolites. Imagine this: We know there are 360 degrees in a full circle and each degree is divided into 60 minutes. One minute of arc is one inch wide at one hundred yards away. Now imagine one second of arc (1 60th of a minute). That is 0.017 of an inch, 100 yards away. This is a device that has to be robust enough that it retains accuracy after being picked-up in the field, swung over the surveyor's shoulder and carried who knows how far. before being thumped down again for the next set of readings. The first instrument to measure reliably to that accuracy was made in Germany in 1929. That's remarkable enough but the early ones worked just as well when hung up side down as was discovered in South Africa in their deeeep gold mines. Remembering that one second is 0.017 at 100 yards range, the scale in the theodolite is about 2 inches diameter. Imagine etching graduations on that concentrically!
IMO, AMAZING!
 
I was in Navy weather service and every 8 hours we sent out the local weather via teletype. If you have ever seen the teletype machine it makes you wonder who invented the thing and better yet, who could work on it when it broke down. Hundreds of gears, hammers, belts, and who knows what all, and the repair man could strip it down completely to the last screw and rebuild it in less than 30 minutes.
 
Fender dies were likely made using a scale model of the fender traced by a Keller Tracing Machine. The Keller Tracing Machine traced the semi-scale sized fender model and up-scaled it to full size as it cut the metal forming die.
 
I'm fascinated with this topic too. I do know that many stamped parts like fenders, hoods, etc. had to be worked in multiple strikes from sheet metal presses using progressive dies to get the final shape depending on the gauge of the metal being formed.
The metal presses themselves were of various sizes - some were 3 stories tall! The final strike usually trimmed the workpiece of all excess metal and gave it a finished look.
Also, after numerous stampings during the mass production process the forming dies would become worn and lose fine detail and would not form parts as crisply as when they started out and had to be replaced with new dies.
 
Bob Bidonde said:
Fender dies were likely made using a scale model of the fender traced by a Keller Tracing Machine. The Keller Tracing Machine traced the semi-scale sized fender model and up-scaled it to full size as it cut the metal forming die.
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Makes me think of the lathes that cut M-1 stocks during WW2, that traced a master pattern. Or a cam grinder.

I wonder how big the cutting tool was that cut the full sized die?
 
According to the book "Tin Lizzie", the Model T crankcases (aka oil pans) were made with "drawing presses" which were made by "Bliss".
 
Back in the 60's I worked for a company that made gas turbine engines. The dies for the sheet metal parts were made using low melting metal alloy, like pot metal. I don't know how the dies were cast but I suspect a wood mold.
 
Here is the press for making the 1928 Ford Model A rear fenders. You can see the piles of newly stamped rear fenders to the right in the photo:

549348


Brad in Maryland
 

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  • 1927 Ford Plant – Stamping Press gelatin silver print Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.jpg
    1927 Ford Plant – Stamping Press gelatin silver print Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.jpg
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WOW that is some big bertha!

where are more of these pictures available?
Like the ones you guys post from the Rouge Plant?
 
I did 35 years in a GM Cadillac plant as a manufacturing/ facilities engineer. My father was a tool and die maker, first at Ford ( B24 , WIllow Run) and then after the war at GM Fisher Body. As a youngster, I had the privilege to tour the main Fisher Body Die and Machine plant, plant 21 on Piquette St in Detroit ( yes right down the street from the Henry Ford model T plant)
Plant 21 had among other things the huge Keller profiling machines, these milling machines traced full size models of the various body parts, milling the profile into the steel die castings. From there, the dies moved to the "barber shop" for much hand finishing.
Attached is a very good 1959 video by Fisher Body called "Up from Clay". In the fifties prior to all the computer assisted operations, most of the operations would not have been much different that those in building the Model A... press loading with automation tools not withstanding. Note reference to scribed stable metal full size "drawing plans", the wood full size models, the Keller profiling machines.
I hope the link for the video comes thru...otherwise just search for the title.
https://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/up-from-clay-a-1959-fisher-body-film/
Joe B
 
CAD (computer aided design) has made the design process much easier that drawing full size plans with a pencil. CAM (computer aided manufacturing) has come a long way in making tooling, eliminating a lot of hand work. In the future, 3D printing will advance to help in prototyping and manufacturing. The car itself is simple compared to the machinery to produce them.
 
To answer your question, in some old factory photo's, you can see a cast-in name plate of the company that built the machine being used. A company near me, in Beverly, Ma., was called the United Shoe Machinery Corp. That huge factory operated for over 100 years making the machines used to make shoes. They were shipped all over the world. The buildings still stand today, but not making machines anymore.
 
al's28/33 said:
Yes it was a different time. Shoes, watches, early kitchen utensils, automobiles, farming implements ..... all of it. There was lots of designing and trial and error in cold damp garages all around our country. A friend of mine has an antique brass cash register circa 1900 and inside has more moving parts with gears, levers and cog-wheels that all move instantaneously when the dollar keys are pressed. That was genius. Not trying to lessen all the modern electronic advancements, but hey, those boys 100 years ago had pencil and paper and no calculators to work out the mathematics. Genius.
Click to expand...

I have said for years that the designers back then were absolutely brilliant. Can you imagine having a picture in your head, putting it to paper and then building it to last 100 years? While today's designers are geniuses in their own right, they wouldn't last long having to build something without the help of a computer. I am fascinated with anything from the turn of the century. Have several pocket watches from the 1890's that still run and is accurate. It just amazes me what was accomplished way back then!
 
Ayers has an interesting point. Different people see different things in their mind's eye. A painter will see a picture in their mind and transfer that picture to the canvas. A sculptor will see a form in their mind before they start the first cut on a block of stone or pick up a piece of clay. An engineer will see the completed assembly with all the gears in their mind before starting a new design. Even with today's computer based systems, the engineer will have to imagine the finished product.

It is the same when working on a Model A. The mechanic will see in their mind the mechanism and the possible problems before picking up a wrench.
 
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