King pin is loose how safe is this?

DeBordEngineMan

DeBordEngineMan

Senior Member
Hey guys going through brake system and adding improvements noticed that the passenger side king pin is worn. The wheel will move up and down when grabbed at top and bottom of wheel, it will move maybe 1/8" or a tad more but not to bad cannot tell any shimmy it driving is this "normal" movement or does it really need replacing with this much movement. Trying to pay as I go which can be very costly on the pocket book with the braking system so I have to work around some things till I can afford to do better, if it is safe to drive for now I will leave it and make it a winter project, by the way the driver side does not move at all, any comments would be great, thanks Robert DeBord
 
Are you sure that it is not a loose wheel bearing and it is ok to drive if the king pin is loose , but you will feel some movement when you drive your A.
 
I have the hub off and inner and outer bearing out only brake shoes and spindle exposed will move by moving backing plate, so it is safe to drive like this? untill later date to fix this winter.
 
Worn bushings will allow the spindle to move in and out as the king pin rocks in the worn area. A strictly up and down movement is probably an indication that some shims need to be placed under the spindle bearing. Look at the bearing as you move the spindle up and down. Do you see space between the bearing and the axle as it moves? Also check the lock pin to insure its tight and that the king pin is locked.

Safe to drive?? well, if its not really loose and causing shimmy or erratic steering, there have been many A's driven that were worse.
 
Are you sure that the kingpin is not moving in the axle? Does the "dome" on the top of the kingpin move when you move the spindle? The kingpin lock bolt could be loose, or the hole in the axle could be wallowed out. This would necessarily not make things dangerous, just more difficult and expensive to fix...

Doug
 
I would rather see you fix a small, less costly problem now rather than a more expensing one later. You have been given some very good starting points to determine where the problem lays. With the brake drum already off, I would also remove the front brake operating shaft from the king pin. Then see if you can twist/move the head of the king pin. It should be so tight that there is zero movement. Several years ago there were some Repo front spindle bolt (kingpin) locking pins that were machined wrong and were soft junk. These became worn and allowed the kingpin to wobble in the axle. If this is your problem then replacing them is a cheap, easy, and quick fix. If the kingpin is tight in the axle then hope that the Front spindle bushings (Top & Bottom) are worn. I say this because the bushings are cheap, otherwise the movement has been happening for some time and your kingpin may also be worn in which case replacing just the bushings won’t accomplish much. The costly kingpin will either have to be repaired or new ones installed.

I fear if you don’t try to fix a known problem now it will only get worse down the road (pun intended) and that my friend will put a Big dent in your budget..

Good luck,,, and let us know what you discover

Doug
 
If the bushings are loose, but if the car drives OK, I would wait for later in the year when you are looking to do a winter project. Be sure the King Pin Lock Bolt is tight, lube everything and drive it this summer. It should be just fine as long as you do not intend to take off across country. Actual king Pin failure is a VERY RARE Thing. I do not remember ever hearing of one breaking while going down the road.

When I was going to school and did not have any money at all to fix things, I drove a '30 P.U. for several years with the front end absolutely worn out, in fact, the whole truck was absolutely worn out. Parts fell off of it at times but it never actually collapsed in the middle of the road.

Again, Just My Opinion

Chris
 
I looked at the king pin this afternoon and I think that I am missing a bushing or something at the bottom of king pin the driver side has a shim I guess that is what it is called and it is all tight, here is a picture of the passenger side the one that I am having trouble with, as seen in picture I am missing something I do believe, what is it? Thanks Robert DeBord
 

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the missing parts are the cup and felt washer. They keep dirt out of the bushing. You are also missing a grease fitting atop the spindle. The whole thing looks very dry to me. Spindle bolts need to be greased every 500 miles. If its been driven dry for long, your bushings and probably the kingpin as well are no doubt well worn . Most steering systems I see that are neglected are worn in many places. Check the lockpins to insure they are tight. Check the spindle bolts to be certain they are not moving in the axle. Fit a grease fitting to that hole in the top spindle. Grease it all up real well and see if it steers better. I bet your tie rod and drag link ends are dry too.
 
"King pin is loose how safe is this? " So how loose is the king pin? Loose enough to cause trouble steering by darting, shaking,...no you say.
My only test is to watch the brake mechanism and if that moves I figure it's time for new king pin kit. Club members have the proper reamer. It's an easy job really.

skip.

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I think that I will go ahead and put in a new kit, that way I don't have to worry about it. To much spent on her now to worry about cost to much. One more problem I read that there is 100-125 pounds of torque on back axle nuts one side gets tight and hub does not turn the other turns freely with a lot of torque as I found out ....axle shims takes care of this the free side had them installed but on front axle is the torque the same? I can tighten the front up pretty tight with a cresent wrench and it gets tight also so tried axle shims on front and bent shims and hub still got tight what am I doing wrong or is there something worn causing the problem? Thanks Robert DeBord
 
DeBordEngineMan said:
I think that I will go ahead and put in a new kit, that way I don't have to worry about it. To much spent on her now to worry about cost to much. One more problem I read that there is 100-125 pounds of torque on back axle nuts one side gets tight and hub does not turn the other turns freely with a lot of torque as I found out ....axle shims takes care of this the free side had them installed but on front axle is the torque the same? I can tighten the front up pretty tight with a cresent wrench and it gets tight also so tried axle shims on front and bent shims and hub still got tight what am I doing wrong or is there something worn causing the problem? Thanks Robert DeBord
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The Front spindle (axle) nuts are not supposed to be tight. They are only to be tightened to the point just short of pre loading the front wheel bearings and then the cotter key is installed.

If you are going to replace the king pins and bushings, you will have to press out the old bushings , press in the new bushings and then size them to to the new king pins. This takes a special reamer or as I like to do, take them to your local automotive machine shop and have them fit the bushings with their piston pin hone. The results will be MUCH BETTER then you can get with a reamer.

If you have not done so already, I would suggest you invest in Les Andrews' Repair Manuals. He goes into all the stuff you have been working on. They are well written and illistrated and cover not only basic maintenance but most of the mechanical work you will be doing. They are available from most parts vendors.

Good luck with your project and keep us posted as to how you progress.

Chris
 
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DeBordEngineMan said:
I think that I will go ahead and put in a new kit, that way I don't have to worry about it. To much spent on her now to worry about cost to much. One more problem I read that there is 100-125 pounds of torque on back axle nuts one side gets tight and hub does not turn the other turns freely with a lot of torque as I found out ....axle shims takes care of this the free side had them installed but on front axle is the torque the same? I can tighten the front up pretty tight with a cresent wrench and it gets tight also so tried axle shims on front and bent shims and hub still got tight what am I doing wrong or is there something worn causing the problem? Thanks Robert DeBord
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Robert,
its clear from what you have written that you need someone experienced to help you. Steering is an essential safety feature. Its not an area to begin learning about mechanics . Trying to rebuild it without some professional guidance could end up very badly. Find a local club and seek some assistance, or hire a Model A mechanic to do the job.

Good luck and be safe.
 
You do not torque up the front hub.If you do you will burn the bearings out for sure.The hubs are a "rolling fit" and the front wheel bearings are not preloaded.You snug the axle nut up and then back off the nut so you have a smidgeon of play when you rock the road wheel.Line up the castle nut and fit the cotter.It being best to adjust the hub/wheel bearings with the wheel fitted. You really need to join your local a club and have someone to talk you through all this.Model Aers are grand folks world wide and would be very pleased to assist you but it might cost a cold beer.

John in windy partly cloudy brisk morning England.
 
I do belong to a local model a club but most all members will not help most guys are in same boat that I am(seems like) but they have the ability to just wright a check and be done with it. I can not do that besides how do ever learn anything by writing a check and having someone else do the work for you? I have met a fellow that is going to help me on my brakes but he does resto work on the model a's for a living he is going to help me on a Sat. and go over them with me and show me what to look for and what to replace but I hate to ask for free help from him. I don't want to come across as a cheap skate, you know what I mean? So that is why I turn to Fordbarn for answers.
 
DeBordEngineMan said:
I do belong to a local model a club but most all members will not help most guys are in same boat that I am(seems like) but they have the ability to just wright a check and be done with it. I can not do that besides how do ever learn anything by writing a check and having someone else do the work for you? I have met a fellow that is going to help me on my brakes but he does resto work on the model a's for a living he is going to help me on a Sat. and go over them with me and show me what to look for and what to replace but I hate to ask for free help from him. I don't want to come across as a cheap skate, you know what I mean? So that is why I turn to Fordbarn for answers.
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I understand where you are coming from. At one time, I had to watch every nickel as I did not have any extra money at all. I also got a lot of help and advice from others. I am now retired but still have a shop. I enjoy spending some of my time helping and teaching the new comers to the hobby about the cars and how to maintain and repair them.

Doing your own work is very rewarding and in the long run will allow you to really enjoy the hobby. Some people have a very minor problem with their Model A and get frustraed because they have to have a shop fix it. Others who are able to do some of the routine work just fix it and keep on going.

Keep asking questions. There is a wealth of knowledge on the Ford Barn and we enjoy shairing it with others in the hobby.

Keep us posted,

Chris
 
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