Canadian rebuild tag identification

[Leyland]

Hi all,

Working on one of my old flatheads I picked up years ago, and discovered it has a rebuild tag on it. However I can’t seem to find any information with similar rebuild details on the tag. We’re Canadian rebuild tags different? Perhaps using “codes” for main, journal, size etc instead of stating them like most common rebuild tags?

Motor has C1BA on rear of block. I pulled the C8CM-c heads and confirmed 4” stroke, however appears someone has swapped the manifold for 3 bolt carb mount as I understand mercs had 4 bolt carb mounts

This motor also has two different water pumps (merc car one side and ford other, but their pulleys don’t align, someone likely tried to swap on what they had laying around) and also the front motor mount is not common to vehicle, leads me to believe this motor was used in a sawmill or pump and not a vehicle for the last part of its life. Needs a rebuild anyways, but curious on tag details and what I might find..


Rebuild tag attached for reference and a few photos

 

[KULTULZ]

Working on one of my old flatheads I picked up years ago, and discovered it has a rebuild tag on it. However I can’t seem to find any information with similar rebuild details on the tag. We’re Canadian rebuild tags different? Perhaps using “codes” for main, journal, size etc instead of stating them like most common rebuild tags?

Motor has C1BA on rear of block. I pulled the C8CM-c heads and confirmed 4” stroke ...

C1BA -

C Identifies as CANADIAN - WINDSOR, ONT PLANT

1BA Identifies the CASTING as 1951/ FORD FLATHEAD
1CM Identifies MERC

THE PN'S listed are -

6261 - Cam Bearings
6199 - Rods (Re-Sized)?
6211 - Rod Bearings
6303 - Crankshaft
6331-6333 - Crank Bearings

They must be coded as to sizing (OS-US).

More Info Here - http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_specifications.htm

I never got involved with flat-heads and know little about them.

 

[KULTULZ]

2nd read -

​

Motor has C1BA on rear of block. I pulled the C8CM-c heads and confirmed 4” stroke, however appears someone has swapped the manifold for 3 bolt carb mount as I understand mercs had 4 bolt carb mounts

It seems you have a Hodge-podge there. It needs to go to forensics.

 

[Leyland]

Yes the more I look into this, the more it appears someone has mismatched parts. Will tear it down and have a closer look to make sure all parts work together and no oddball findings. I’m still confused on some of the codes as I found another friends motor with rebuild plate and they have some different reference numbers.

I still can’t find the size references for letter designations that are stamped for each journal on the site

 

[KULTULZ]

Yes the more I look into this, the more it appears someone has mismatched parts.

Hopefully it was done to improve HP. It has MERC heads and stroke.

Did the referring URL help at all?

 

[Leyland]

Great start so far to understanding the Canadian machining side of things. The VanPelt website has great information on the engines, transmissions, etc from factory, but I haven’t been able to find anything as it relates to codes for engine rebuilds from machine shops from that era, particularly Canadian engine rebuilding as they appear to be using a code matrix instead of the related numerical size change like commonly seen on USA rebuild tags. The codes you mentioned are exactly what I’m after, but this doesn’t appear to be consistent from engine shop to engine shop. For example, see attached tag from another Canadian engine. You will notice there are some differences between 6Xxx numbers between the two tags.

Also What sizes does “C”, or “G”, or “D” refer to as respective numerical sizes?

For crank under sizing, there must be two references: the main bearing journals, and the rod bearing journals

For bore, obvious, overbore

For cam, must be bearing journals, undersized

These C,DG numbers must be associated letters for each size of change?

Lastly, the C1BA. My factory stock 52 mercury motor also says C1BA, but is a 52. However I have never seen a C0BA, or C8BA, or C3BA cast onto block. Do they exist?

 

[Leyland]

I compared both rebuild plates against number references provided above by Kultulz, (thanks Kultulz!). Findings below:

6199 rods is only on my original tag, not on the other Canadian tag I’ve found
6211 rod bearings is identified on both tags
6331 crank bearings is on both tags
6333 crank bearings is on both tags (why mentioned twice?)
Note that neither tag have same Letter (OS/US sizes). Seems to me most commonly we would see some bearings undersized the same unless one happens to be a second rebuild on same motor
6261 Cam bearings (oddly not mentioned on either of my tags))

No mention of cylinder bore over size in numbers mentioned above
6108, 6801 on both plates but not mentioned by Kultulz. (perhaps these two same but typo between re-manufacturer plans?).

And neither tag has 6303 on them? But perhaps covered by 6331 and 6333

 

[rotorwrench]

The part number suffix designates the size for the different part numbers. I don't have a Canadian chassis parts book for Ford or Mercury but they may be the same suffix that Ford USA used.

Canadian production followed USA production relatively close in the 8BA years. The 8BA block was used till a change was made in early 1951 for the rotator type valve train and the crankshafts to work with the automatic transmissions. The 1BA block remained in service till the end of flathead production. Ford & Mercury cars all used the common block for the date of manufacture. The crankshaft and pistons are the only internal differences between the 239 and the 255 CID engines in the 8BA era.

USA sizes
6261 no suffix is standard cam bearing
6211-C is -.010" con rod big end bearing
6331-E is -.020" rear main bearing
6333-F is -.020" front & center main bearings

 

[KULTULZ]

I compared both rebuild plates against number references provided above by Kultulz, (thanks Kultulz!). Findings below:

The first TAG you showed is FORD MOTOR COMPANY of CANADA. The 2nd you show is of a FORD AUTHORIZED REMANUFACTURER - WESTERN ENGINE WORKS LTD.

6108 on the 2nd TAG is a piston. 6211 ROD BRGS. 6331 and 6333 are MAIN BRGS (main and center thrust).

6199 rods is only on my original tag, not on the other Canadian tag I’ve found

6211 rod bearings is identified on both tags
6331 crank bearings is on both tags
6333 crank bearings is on both tags (why mentioned twice?)

Note that neither tag have same Letter (OS/US sizes). Seems to me most commonly we would see some bearings undersized the same unless one happens to be a second rebuild on same motor
6261 Cam bearings (oddly not mentioned on either of my tags))

No mention of cylinder bore over size in numbers mentioned above 6108, 6801 on both plates but not mentioned by Kultulz. (perhaps these two same but typo between re-manufacturer plans?).

And neither tag has 6303 on them? But perhaps covered by 6331 and 6333

You have to understand the FORD PN CONVENTION developed and changed over the years. Some numbers shown (BASIC PART NUMBER) vary between ENGINEERING and SERVICE PN's. Also some BASIC PART NUMBERS varied between conventions.

It may be the CODING is matching the size designations (last PN CHARACTER) as shown in the SERVICE PARTS CATALOG - 6211 EXAMPLE SHOWN BELOW -

As for crank and mains, FORD REMAN (US) sold what is referred to as a CRANK KIT, whereas the crank was machined and the correct inserts provided in the kit. That may be the answer for the crank (6303).

Also Read This - https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1ba-flathead.426933/

Usually, all of this tag info is not included. It gives a SERIAL NUMBER where the REMAN can go back to search records as how the engine was assembled.

There had to be a REMAN CATALOGING to cross all of this over, It most likely would not have been included in a SERVICE PARTS CATALOG. It was an separate division

rotorwrench seems to have a good handle on it also.

Much varied between US and CAN PRODUCTION.

 

[KULTULZ]

... forgot ... ​

Lastly, the C1BA. My factory stock 52 mercury motor also says C1BA, but is a 52. However I have never seen a C0BA, or C8BA, or C3BA cast onto block. Do they exist?

1BA (drop the C) identifies the block as a 1951/ design. Unless there was a major change in CASTING, that number would have followed in succeeding years until a design change. You would ascertain the actual casting/model year by the DATE CASTING CODE.

 

[dmsfrr]

Hi all,

Working on one of my old flatheads I picked up years ago, and discovered it has a rebuild tag on it. However I can’t seem to find any information with similar rebuild details on the tag. We’re Canadian rebuild tags different? Perhaps using “codes” for main, journal, size etc instead of stating them like most common rebuild tags?

Motor has C1BA on rear of block. I pulled the C8CM-c heads and confirmed 4” stroke, however appears someone has swapped the manifold for 3 bolt carb mount as I understand mercs had 4 bolt carb mounts
...

Leyland,
Did you consider posting these same questions here on Fordbarn but in the Early V-8 (1932 to 53) forum?

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=4

 

[darrell]

this is where the 312 truck engines you sometimes hear about came from.some guy would go to ford dealer and tell them they wanted a 312 engine instead of a 292 and the dealer would call the ford authorized rebuilder and order one and they would build a truck engine around a 312 block.

 

[scicala]

Sorry....., mistake