Babbitt bearing inserts
- Thread starter 31 A4door
- Start date
Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
Pete hit it on the head!
MikeK
Well-known member
Inserts require a crank ground to one of a few very specific diameters to 'fit' the standard/undersize shells available. If you have a crank in fine shape that does not match one of the prescribed sizes, regrinding is necessary for use of inserts. Babbitt can be bored to match what is now considered an odd size, say 0.025 or 0.050 under. "Odd" size regrinds (only what was necessary) was common in the Babbitt era. What is your crank like, and how much money do you want to dump into it?
Worst scenario- You decide to go 5500 rpm on a steep 40% grade hillclimb and burn up a bearing.
(don't ask)
Babbitt: The crank will probably survive without regrind. Just pull it, straighten, scrape off the Babbitt and repolish. You need to entirely strip the block to properly pre-heat, re-pour, and rebore the Babbitt.
Inserts: The crank will score needing a regrind. The engine can be pulled and flipped over with head, pistons, everything in place to do the job, much easier than the Babbitt route. The insert shells are a drop-in replacement in any of several standard sizes to match your re-worked or replacement crank.
Other-
Babbitt- The alloy will be available in ingots 'till the end of time. The availability of shops that can actually do the job right where it will last long-term have pretty much reached the end of their time. It does require periodic shim adjustment for long life.
Inserts- Availability of drop-in replacements 25 years down the road depends on what inserts were used. If your engine builder bored the block to fit inserts from some obscure, low repair or collector desirability, like a made in Uzbekistan Fukelp tractor, you're screwed. Block machining required to re-fit something else. Inserts that originally fit a SBC or the like, probably will be available forever. Inserts specifically designed as retro-fits for our beloved 4-bangers, like the AER and Snyder's, who knows?
Depending on how bottomless your old-car money pit is, (wife sez mine is a black hole) you could build up a previously insert-bored block with nickel rod and go back to standard dimensions. The advantage to this is you can actually tin the nickel, unlike the original cast gray iron. That would give you a very superior poured Babbitt bond that would not crack away on the thrusts.
Me- My Babbitt pot went cold in 1984. The last engine I did, a 1921 Oakland, ran on #3 Babbitt 'till the owner's son got the car and 'improved' it in 1996 with a toyota engine and automatic trans.
If you can't decide, flip a coin. I can't flip it, 'cause I'll miss the catch and it will go down in my black hole.
Worst scenario- You decide to go 5500 rpm on a steep 40% grade hillclimb and burn up a bearing.
(don't ask) Babbitt: The crank will probably survive without regrind. Just pull it, straighten, scrape off the Babbitt and repolish. You need to entirely strip the block to properly pre-heat, re-pour, and rebore the Babbitt.
Inserts: The crank will score needing a regrind. The engine can be pulled and flipped over with head, pistons, everything in place to do the job, much easier than the Babbitt route. The insert shells are a drop-in replacement in any of several standard sizes to match your re-worked or replacement crank.
Other-
Babbitt- The alloy will be available in ingots 'till the end of time. The availability of shops that can actually do the job right where it will last long-term have pretty much reached the end of their time. It does require periodic shim adjustment for long life.
Inserts- Availability of drop-in replacements 25 years down the road depends on what inserts were used. If your engine builder bored the block to fit inserts from some obscure, low repair or collector desirability, like a made in Uzbekistan Fukelp tractor, you're screwed. Block machining required to re-fit something else. Inserts that originally fit a SBC or the like, probably will be available forever. Inserts specifically designed as retro-fits for our beloved 4-bangers, like the AER and Snyder's, who knows?
Depending on how bottomless your old-car money pit is, (wife sez mine is a black hole) you could build up a previously insert-bored block with nickel rod and go back to standard dimensions. The advantage to this is you can actually tin the nickel, unlike the original cast gray iron. That would give you a very superior poured Babbitt bond that would not crack away on the thrusts.
Me- My Babbitt pot went cold in 1984. The last engine I did, a 1921 Oakland, ran on #3 Babbitt 'till the owner's son got the car and 'improved' it in 1996 with a toyota engine and automatic trans.
If you can't decide, flip a coin. I can't flip it, 'cause I'll miss the catch and it will go down in my black hole.
31A4door: I would call on Mr.Ora Landis,owner/operator at Schwalm's Babbitted Bearings, Inc @ 717-687-6976 Model T,A,B,V8 specialists his Email is ora@schwalms.com hope this helps
RJT
RJT
J and M Machine
Senior Member
"Quote" Babbitt- The alloy will be available in ingots 'till the end of time. The availability of shops that can actually do the job right where it will last long-term have pretty much reached the end of their time. It does require periodic shim adjustment for long life.
Inserts- Availability of drop-in replacements 25 years down the road depends on what inserts were used. If your engine builder bored the block to fit inserts from some obscure, low repair or collector desirability, like a made in Uzbekistan Fukelp tractor, you're screwed. Block machining required to re-fit something else. Inserts that originally fit a SBC or the like, probably will be available forever. Inserts specifically designed as retro-fits for our beloved 4-bangers, like the AER and Snyder's, who knows?
Good Points,Thanks Mike:
We intend to be around for a long time. We also prefer to do babbitt because we can and do it correctly.
As Mike mentioned above there are only so many shops that will do the babbitt correctly.
Also he tapped on another subject that no one has thought of .
What happens in five or ten years when the Chinese decide to stop making bearings for Model A's because they don't sell enough?
Or the quality goes into the trash can like so many other Model A parts???
Makes one wonder.
Babbitt done right should look like this.
http://www.jandm-machine.com/rebabbitting.html
Inserts- Availability of drop-in replacements 25 years down the road depends on what inserts were used. If your engine builder bored the block to fit inserts from some obscure, low repair or collector desirability, like a made in Uzbekistan Fukelp tractor, you're screwed. Block machining required to re-fit something else. Inserts that originally fit a SBC or the like, probably will be available forever. Inserts specifically designed as retro-fits for our beloved 4-bangers, like the AER and Snyder's, who knows?
Good Points,Thanks Mike:
We intend to be around for a long time. We also prefer to do babbitt because we can and do it correctly.
As Mike mentioned above there are only so many shops that will do the babbitt correctly.
Also he tapped on another subject that no one has thought of .
What happens in five or ten years when the Chinese decide to stop making bearings for Model A's because they don't sell enough?
Or the quality goes into the trash can like so many other Model A parts???
Makes one wonder.
Babbitt done right should look like this.
http://www.jandm-machine.com/rebabbitting.html
Attachments
James Rogers
Well-known member
I agree with Mike and J&M about the availability of inserts and babbitt. You will find shops that recommend babbitt or some that suggest inserts because that is what they prefer but you won't find many that will suggest both or doing either. I have had blocks in my shop that were bored for inserts that the bearings were of some obscure make or non-existant and impossible to replace. I also find many different ways to address the thrust and many DON'T WORK or, are impossible to duplicate. In the end, if you go with inserts, you will be FOREVER at the mercy of the builder and only him in many cases. I also, will add, if you have a catastrophic failure with an insert that spins in the block, you have a very good boat anchor on your hands. This last comment is in complement to J&M's comment on spun insert bearings.
I have had motors come in with the babbitt completely gone in the center main BLOCK and CAP, that didn't even need the crank polished to make the needed repairs. This will never happen with inserts Model A or modern.
I have had motors come in with the babbitt completely gone in the center main BLOCK and CAP, that didn't even need the crank polished to make the needed repairs. This will never happen with inserts Model A or modern.
Are we addressing rod and main bearings or main bearings only ? Previous owner of my 31 s/w with B engine had a rod knocking . He put in 1964 triumph insert rod bearings and left the main bearings babbitt. Wonder how long this set up will last . Put about 2,000 touring miles on since I bought it . So far so good .
Greg Jones
Well-known member
Babbitt, properly done and maintained, will last a long time. Most of our lifetimes...
Pete
BANNED
On a side subject, people talk about bearings spinning in the block or babbitt pounding out so it "ruins" the block.
For burned or worn saddles you can almost 100% of the time put a sleeve in it and save it. Many blocks have been tossed that could have been saved had they been taken to the proper shop.
As far as inserts not being available down the road 25 years, just another rationalization by friends of babbitt. If there had been no inserts ever commercially made, any machine shop worth it's salt could make them from aluminum bar stock.
Reasonably priced too.
What it boils down to is what the engine owner decides is best for himself.
Whatever it is, any one of the better shops will always be able to fix him up, even
100 years down the road.
For burned or worn saddles you can almost 100% of the time put a sleeve in it and save it. Many blocks have been tossed that could have been saved had they been taken to the proper shop.
As far as inserts not being available down the road 25 years, just another rationalization by friends of babbitt. If there had been no inserts ever commercially made, any machine shop worth it's salt could make them from aluminum bar stock.
Reasonably priced too.
What it boils down to is what the engine owner decides is best for himself.
Whatever it is, any one of the better shops will always be able to fix him up, even
100 years down the road.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
I agree 110% on all accounts.
My comment for today is if you are worried about not having bearings for the future, buy an extra set and put them on the shelves for possible future use. Other options include rebabbitting current bearing shells when they become worn and re-machining these like rebuilders of many orphan cars that bearings are unavailable for. When there is a sincere will, there is a way.
Flathead
Well-known member
On the suggestion of making a bearing insert out of solid aluminum. Would that be good for a Model A? My understanding is that the babbitt material, whether poured or on an insert, has more conformability, and embedability. I know that aluminum will "weld" to the crank and spin the insert if the lubrication fails. With splash oiling and no filter or minimal filter, I have been leery of this option.
Does anyone have actual experience with aluminum bearings in a Model A or similar engine? I am aware that aluminum has been used in some more modern engine bearings.
Just would like some info on this, do not mean to ruffle any feathers. Thanks
Does anyone have actual experience with aluminum bearings in a Model A or similar engine? I am aware that aluminum has been used in some more modern engine bearings.
Just would like some info on this, do not mean to ruffle any feathers. Thanks
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
When an insert go's it just about always takes the shaft!
If you buy an extra set of bearings, what size would you get, and how many different sizes, and sets?
We have bronze, and or Brass inserts made quite often, because of cracks, cranks smashing them, also, typically about 300.00 a hole, and that is not material!
As far as inserts not being available down the road 25 years, just another rationalization by friends of babbitt. "END QUOTE"
That statement is "B.S."
There are lots of inserts that were used years ago that are not to be had now. There are also inserts that are going obsolete every day, and if you find NOS, there 4 & 5 times the money!
If you would try to use Aluminum as a shim, you have to bore the block even more to get the thickness for strength of the Aluminum, and another insert to ride on, and then you have two inserts in the same hole, with two spaces between inserts for oil to be between and insolate heat transfer, as oil is NOT a good Heat conductor!
Boring for one bad insert that spun, never works, unless you have a two main bearing crank.
When you add that third bearing, lots of luck to that align bore!
If your going to make an Aluminum insert for the crank to run on , that won't work without Hi oil pressure. Aluminum will not work with splash, it galls, same as inserts.
This Motor was running good, but was tore down for a crack, had a 100 miles, had a crack.
If you buy an extra set of bearings, what size would you get, and how many different sizes, and sets?
We have bronze, and or Brass inserts made quite often, because of cracks, cranks smashing them, also, typically about 300.00 a hole, and that is not material!
As far as inserts not being available down the road 25 years, just another rationalization by friends of babbitt. "END QUOTE"
That statement is "B.S."
There are lots of inserts that were used years ago that are not to be had now. There are also inserts that are going obsolete every day, and if you find NOS, there 4 & 5 times the money!
If you would try to use Aluminum as a shim, you have to bore the block even more to get the thickness for strength of the Aluminum, and another insert to ride on, and then you have two inserts in the same hole, with two spaces between inserts for oil to be between and insolate heat transfer, as oil is NOT a good Heat conductor!
Boring for one bad insert that spun, never works, unless you have a two main bearing crank.
When you add that third bearing, lots of luck to that align bore!
If your going to make an Aluminum insert for the crank to run on , that won't work without Hi oil pressure. Aluminum will not work with splash, it galls, same as inserts.
This Motor was running good, but was tore down for a crack, had a 100 miles, had a crack.
Attachments
hardtimes
Well-known member
'how long will it last' ? Hm, we'd all like to know..for sure..the answer to that question,eh
!Well, as to same question as regards your triumph inserts, I've had the triumph inserts in my Russian B for well over 10 years and she just keeps on humming with great full pressure setup.
Now, if you get seriously concerned about...'how long'... you have to look to do the work that will preserve them ! That is and can include...full pressure with high grade oil pump; full oil filter system; regular maintenance and clean detergent oil always helps. Long life , of course, includes the basic idea that the 'job' was done perfectly to begin with, opposite, i.e.- poor foundation/short lived engine co-relation (FACT). A lot of (truth) clichés come to mind...such as you get out of it what you put into it; money well spent , etc...
One other thing that will most likely help 'long life', is recognizing that because your A/B runs really well, doesn't mean that you can/should abuse it and expect same same. But, what the heck fun would that be
roddyb34
Senior Member
Hi ,,now i am getting really confused with the babbitt /shells debate ,,As someone who is on the other side of the world [Australia] and is weghing up rebuild options on an A engine i am trying to figure where to go ,,i am not sure of anyone out here [Australia ] that i could be assured could do a Babbitt job correctly ,,any Aussies had succes ?,, we have a local "Vintage Engine Expert" that has recently done an A engine that failed soon after ,,he said its a big job to do because he has to "hand scrape" all the bearings to fit,,??,,,by the looks of the beautifull pics above of the J and M babbitt job its a machine finish ,,regarding the worn shell pics Is all that wear from just 100 miles use?,,can you give an idea why ?is it from lugging it?,,,,what is the owner going to do to rectify it?,,
my current engine that i am runningthat came from the U.S.in an A coupe has had a rebuild at some time but #3 rod is knocking lightly but has no shims left ,,so the rest is also unknown Quality ,,,
my current engine that i am runningthat came from the U.S.in an A coupe has had a rebuild at some time but #3 rod is knocking lightly but has no shims left ,,so the rest is also unknown Quality ,,,
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Well-known member
Having a good job on the inserts should be OK, if you have a drilled crank, oil pressure, and a good oil filter system.
If you don't, when normal dirt goes through your bearings and can't imbed, it can't help looking like the pictures.
Babbitt will do the same if the dirt is way over normal.
we have a local "Vintage Engine Expert" that has recently done an A engine that failed soon after ,,he said its a big job to do because he has to "hand scrape" all the bearings to fit,,??"END QUOTE"
Roddy, if he has to scrape three poured bearings, I would call him an Expert. I don't think I would let him put in inserts either, or anything else.
If you don't, when normal dirt goes through your bearings and can't imbed, it can't help looking like the pictures.
Babbitt will do the same if the dirt is way over normal.
we have a local "Vintage Engine Expert" that has recently done an A engine that failed soon after ,,he said its a big job to do because he has to "hand scrape" all the bearings to fit,,??"END QUOTE"
Roddy, if he has to scrape three poured bearings, I would call him an Expert. I don't think I would let him put in inserts either, or anything else.
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J and M Machine
Senior Member
"Quote" we have a local "Vintage Engine Expert" that has recently done an A engine that failed soon after ,,he said its a big job to do because he has to "hand scrape" all the bearings to fit,,??,,,by the looks of the beautifull pics above of the J and M babbitt job its a machine finish
Roddyb34 yes it is a machine finish.
There is no need to hand scrape if you have good machinery clearly something is wrong with the vintage expert.
We recently sent an engine to OZ if you'd like to email me i can give you his contact info.
Also the Aluminum bearing shells "reasonably priced" I highly question that.
Aluminum is not a good bearing material for a splash system.
However in heavy diesels Aluminum has been used "plated to a steel shell" for many years. These engines have full pressure oiling and the crankshafts are also hardened.
In another post someone asked about bronze bearings in Model A well the preferred material on a splash system is babbitt.
Roddyb34 yes it is a machine finish.
There is no need to hand scrape if you have good machinery clearly something is wrong with the vintage expert.
We recently sent an engine to OZ if you'd like to email me i can give you his contact info.
Also the Aluminum bearing shells "reasonably priced" I highly question that.
Aluminum is not a good bearing material for a splash system.
However in heavy diesels Aluminum has been used "plated to a steel shell" for many years. These engines have full pressure oiling and the crankshafts are also hardened.
In another post someone asked about bronze bearings in Model A well the preferred material on a splash system is babbitt.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Maybe we should let the Briggs & Stratton and Tecumseh engine folks know that because haven't they have been successfully using aluminum and splash oiling for quite a few decades now. 
.
