Distributor talk.....
- Thread starter BUBBAS IGNITION
- Start date
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
Theres no way that your Ford will run OK on one set of points it might get you home at 20MPH ,but thats about it You will have missing and bucking and not get the coil saturation required.You can only get 22.1/2 degrees maximum out of a left set of points on a 36 Helmet no matter how you adjust them .The KR Wilson setting instructions demonstrate this .
Originally Posted by Brendan
it looks nice to me! I have a question, could a Ford run on one set of points? I was just wondering....Brendan
Originally Posted by Brendan
it looks nice to me! I have a question, could a Ford run on one set of points? I was just wondering....Brendan
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FlatheadTed
Well-known member
A dwell meter sets coil charge up duration only ,not timing .
spark timing, relative to piston position, is based on static (initial or base) timing prior to centrifugal advance. The distributor's centrifugal mechanical spark advancing mechanism allows the spark to occur sooner (relative to crankshaft degrees) as RPM increase.Timing advance" refers to the number of degrees before top dead center (BTDC) that the spark will ignite the air-fuel mixture in the combustion chamber during the compression stroke.
Quote Bubba .The left side is adjusted first ( with the right side being blocked off) and the left side controls the actual spark timing. This adjustment is done running with a dwell meter at a spec of 27 degrees ,
spark timing, relative to piston position, is based on static (initial or base) timing prior to centrifugal advance. The distributor's centrifugal mechanical spark advancing mechanism allows the spark to occur sooner (relative to crankshaft degrees) as RPM increase.Timing advance" refers to the number of degrees before top dead center (BTDC) that the spark will ignite the air-fuel mixture in the combustion chamber during the compression stroke.
Quote Bubba .The left side is adjusted first ( with the right side being blocked off) and the left side controls the actual spark timing. This adjustment is done running with a dwell meter at a spec of 27 degrees ,
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BUBBAS IGNITION
Well-known member
8/32 thread by 1/4 long. We use the 1/4 length in a lot of stuff . On the Ford distributor we always use a lock washer and with the washer the length is perfect.
Note the connection screws are also stainless but a smaller size ...i will check on that size at work..
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
I am sure Bubbas distributors run OK.
On any timing fixture such as the one shown you first establish timing ,as in 4° BTDC , by locking the degree wheel into the slot .You then proceed to set the dwell .once the dwell is set you can advance or retard the timing ,with out affecting dwell .On single points like a 8BA the maximum dwell you get is about 30-31 .The 37 helmet and the crab you get a maxmium about 23°on the left points sitting in the drivers seat .
On any timing fixture such as the one shown you first establish timing ,as in 4° BTDC , by locking the degree wheel into the slot .You then proceed to set the dwell .once the dwell is set you can advance or retard the timing ,with out affecting dwell .On single points like a 8BA the maximum dwell you get is about 30-31 .The 37 helmet and the crab you get a maxmium about 23°on the left points sitting in the drivers seat .
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FlatheadTed
Well-known member
No disrespect meant for Bubba, I just think that people want more detail .
Harylufa
Senior Member
Dear Friends!
I am following this thread and last week I sent my distributor to be calibrated with a distributor machine.
I decided to test it with manual dist machine, first testing left point and blocking the right one. After testing the right one and blocking the left one. finally Testing completely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrw3yvXVdVI&feature=youtu.be
I measured both set points and result is 0,018". This calibration was made by a man who has a distributor machine, here is very difficult to find someone who does this shop and also has the knowledge (like you guys).
Please watch the video I uploaded and let me know your opinion, if you any doubt please let me know
thanks
Hary.
I am following this thread and last week I sent my distributor to be calibrated with a distributor machine.
I decided to test it with manual dist machine, first testing left point and blocking the right one. After testing the right one and blocking the left one. finally Testing completely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrw3yvXVdVI&feature=youtu.be
I measured both set points and result is 0,018". This calibration was made by a man who has a distributor machine, here is very difficult to find someone who does this shop and also has the knowledge (like you guys).
Please watch the video I uploaded and let me know your opinion, if you any doubt please let me know
thanks
Hary.
BUBBAS IGNITION
Well-known member
Actually Ted thats not entirely true. I will run up a couple tomorrow on the test machine and post. I have some single point early Fords hanging on the wall...
BUBBAS IGNITION
Well-known member
I love that machine , looks pretty official to me!! What was the dwell scale reading in the examples shown on the machine ???
BUBBAS IGNITION
Well-known member
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
I watched the Video ,very good .are you saying you got 18 degrease ? .I have done the same tests using a degree wheel ,you can get a little more dwell by screwing in or out the point contact but the Max I could get was 22.5 . You may get a little more from the 8Ba depending on point design.All i could get was 22.5 if you take a full circle its 180 degrease .if you divide that into 8 segments you get 8 times = 22.1/2 . That should read 360 degrease divided by 16 since its crank shaft Deg
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BUBBAS IGNITION
Well-known member
The distance between cam lobes in the distributor is 45 degrees ( on a V8) and a circle in the USA is 360 degrees. That could be why you cant understand a 36 degree setting.
Just saying.....
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
Thats my error its 360 degree here to ,But thats not whats in question here ,you cannot get 32 degrees dwell out of the left set of Ford points ,and run a car on it .?? I have done plenty of tests .And Harry's video confirms it .
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Harylufa
Senior Member
Dear Bubba!
Here I attach some pictures showing what I did in the video. Please this is what I understood according these explanation.
Keep in touch
Thanks
Hary
PS:"I must thank "Hoop" who taught me this method using tester".
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Hoop
Well-known member
Harylufa,
Nice to see you are still working with your distributor.
BUT, those are not the numbers I told you.
Your machine is very simple.
1. Set the LEFT points so that they are closed (Sound Yes) for the GREEN area on your machine. ONLY the green area and ALL of the green area.
2. Set the RIGHT points so they are closed (Sound Yes) for the YELLOW area. ONLY and ALL the yellow area.
If you do this, you will have SOUND for the total WHITE area. You should have NO sound for the RED area at all with either set of points.
This thread has become confusing. Your machine is designed to set your LEFT side point dwell at 22 1/2 degrees. Do not try to use 27 degrees.
ALSO, your machine automatically sets your initial advance to 4 degrees. DO NOT add any advance to the color-coded settings on your machine.
Buen trabajo, amigo. (Demasiados cocineros estropear el puchero.)
BUBBAS IGNITION
Well-known member
Like Hoop says , this thread may be getting somewhat confusing.
Maybe i can help us all out here just a bit as i have crabs to run on the distributor machine this morning.
After some discussion with Hoop i agree that the LH point setting on the crab is correct at 22 1/2 degrees and the total is the same as the Helmets at 35-38 degrees or 36 degrees as used ....
Now lets clear up Teds comments.
First of all any single point set up could be adjusted at 36 if needed to be ( with some conditions as stated later).
The distributor cam is 45 degrees and if dwell of 36 is adjusted (in the middle of the cam) then you have 9 degrees divided on each side for 4 1/2 degrees. This added to the next cylinder would equal 36 degrees of closed contact ( building) and 9 degrees of open ( firing). Thats kinda what 8 cylinder cars have ran on forever and creates no problem whatso ever.
BUT for each degree of dwell change ( using a crab as a example) engine timing changes 2 degrees. ( based on camshaft being half speed).
NOW we can begin to see Teds point !!! If you adjust a crab LH set to 36 degrees ( no problem doing that) with the RH set blocked off the coil still fires etc , BUT the timing retards 13 degrees engine.!! This requires a downward adjustment of the timing plate to restore the timing back to normal . I then ran the distributor with a ignition coil and 1/2 inch spark all the way to 5000 rpm for a very long time this morning..
Another option is to remove both sets of points and install a new set of Ford V8 single points in their place . This requires that the contacts be positioned to have a correct timing value to allow rotor index and base engine timing.
There are quite a few of these running around here with the contacts triggering the MSD box ( allowing the contacts to last forever)
Stay tuned as i have a couple of these to build for area hot rod guys and will write up the build when i get to it.
Also coming soon " The As, Bs and Cs of helmets ............
Maybe i can help us all out here just a bit as i have crabs to run on the distributor machine this morning.
After some discussion with Hoop i agree that the LH point setting on the crab is correct at 22 1/2 degrees and the total is the same as the Helmets at 35-38 degrees or 36 degrees as used ....
Now lets clear up Teds comments.
First of all any single point set up could be adjusted at 36 if needed to be ( with some conditions as stated later).
The distributor cam is 45 degrees and if dwell of 36 is adjusted (in the middle of the cam) then you have 9 degrees divided on each side for 4 1/2 degrees. This added to the next cylinder would equal 36 degrees of closed contact ( building) and 9 degrees of open ( firing). Thats kinda what 8 cylinder cars have ran on forever and creates no problem whatso ever.
BUT for each degree of dwell change ( using a crab as a example) engine timing changes 2 degrees. ( based on camshaft being half speed).
NOW we can begin to see Teds point !!! If you adjust a crab LH set to 36 degrees ( no problem doing that) with the RH set blocked off the coil still fires etc , BUT the timing retards 13 degrees engine.!! This requires a downward adjustment of the timing plate to restore the timing back to normal . I then ran the distributor with a ignition coil and 1/2 inch spark all the way to 5000 rpm for a very long time this morning..
Another option is to remove both sets of points and install a new set of Ford V8 single points in their place . This requires that the contacts be positioned to have a correct timing value to allow rotor index and base engine timing.
There are quite a few of these running around here with the contacts triggering the MSD box ( allowing the contacts to last forever)
Stay tuned as i have a couple of these to build for area hot rod guys and will write up the build when i get to it.
Also coming soon " The As, Bs and Cs of helmets ............
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Harylufa
Senior Member
Harylufa,
Nice to see you are still working with your distributor.
BUT, those are not the numbers I told you.
Your machine is very simple.
1. Set the LEFT points so that they are closed (Sound Yes) for the GREEN area on your machine. ONLY the green area and ALL of the green area.
2. Set the RIGHT points so they are closed (Sound Yes) for the YELLOW area. ONLY and ALL the yellow area.
If you do this, you will have SOUND for the total WHITE area. You should have NO sound for the RED area at all with either set of points.
This thread has become confusing. Your machine is designed to set your LEFT side point dwell at 22 1/2 degrees. Do not try to use 27 degrees.
ALSO, your machine automatically sets your initial advance to 4 degrees. DO NOT add any advance to the color-coded settings on your machine.
Buen trabajo, amigo. (Demasiados cocineros estropear el puchero.)
Dear Hoop,
Thanks for reading!
What I show in this video is a distributor I have as spare part. This was calibrated by a technician in a distributor machine. He gave it to me and now I am testing it in the manual machine I have, so I can compare his work with what you told me. I realized that the calibrations are different using those systems (manual machine and distributor machine). The gap in the contact points is 0.018" in both contacts (your method is with 0.015").
Hoop, don't worry, now my engine has ANOTHER distributor installed which is calibrated in the way you told me. Exactly as you explained me above and months ago when you first talked about this.
The big question for everyone is: why both calibrations (manual and with distributor machine) don't arrive to the same setting? Maybe due to the quality of each distributor (bushing, contact points, shaft, cam and weight assembly, etc.)?
Thank you all again. Keep on posting and teaching people like me! In my country we have a big problem setting this kind of distributor and most people prefer moving to electronic dist.
Harylufa.
P.S.: Hoop, I am nearly becoming a cook so I can prepare MY own puchero!
Hoop
Well-known member
Harylufa,
Your manual machine and a strobe distributor machine should be approximately the same. If there is a big difference, then it must be one of the machines ... or the operator.
Some people say that the stobe machine is the "only" way to set a distributor, BUT ... how do you know that the strobe machine is accurate. They must be calibrated routinely to be accurate. Very few people know how to do this or have the proper tools.
The same for the manual machine. I bought a KR Wilson model that was mucho out of calibration.
Continue your good work. You're becoming the #1 flathead ignition guy in Argentina!
Hoop
Your manual machine and a strobe distributor machine should be approximately the same. If there is a big difference, then it must be one of the machines ... or the operator.
Some people say that the stobe machine is the "only" way to set a distributor, BUT ... how do you know that the strobe machine is accurate. They must be calibrated routinely to be accurate. Very few people know how to do this or have the proper tools.
The same for the manual machine. I bought a KR Wilson model that was mucho out of calibration.
Continue your good work. You're becoming the #1 flathead ignition guy in Argentina!
Hoop
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
Bubba Thanks for the follow up ,I am sure you have done way more distributors than me , but some of it I disagree with and I am sure people will find it confusing . ?? ,I think for the followers of this thread I should give a answer, that will be to night ..
,I will deal with it as Ford does ,,and KR Wilson as cam shaft degrees = dwell Rather than jump back and forth from crank shaft deg .Just a note],In order to restor the so called degrees retard you talk about, you must move the advance plate up. not down ?? Any adjustment of the left set of points would not retard it unless you are pushing the advance plate down ??. The 27 deg whats that ?we were original talking about 22.1/2 deg dwell on the left points verses your claimed 32 , By the way I run one custom line single points in my 34, these need to be set on maximum dwell to supply enough switching to the coil people can see how this car runs on my video .The test you did to 5000RPM I assume were with this type of points not stock flathead ones ,
NOW we can begin to see Teds point !!! If you adjust a crab LH set to 36 degrees ( no problem doing that) with the RH set blocked off the coil still fires etc , BUT the timing retards 13 degrees engine.!! This requires a downward adjustment of the timing plate to restore the timing back to normal
,I will deal with it as Ford does ,,and KR Wilson as cam shaft degrees = dwell Rather than jump back and forth from crank shaft deg .Just a note],In order to restor the so called degrees retard you talk about, you must move the advance plate up. not down ?? Any adjustment of the left set of points would not retard it unless you are pushing the advance plate down ??. The 27 deg whats that ?we were original talking about 22.1/2 deg dwell on the left points verses your claimed 32 , By the way I run one custom line single points in my 34, these need to be set on maximum dwell to supply enough switching to the coil people can see how this car runs on my video .The test you did to 5000RPM I assume were with this type of points not stock flathead ones ,
NOW we can begin to see Teds point !!! If you adjust a crab LH set to 36 degrees ( no problem doing that) with the RH set blocked off the coil still fires etc , BUT the timing retards 13 degrees engine.!! This requires a downward adjustment of the timing plate to restore the timing back to normal
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