Adding turbo to classic FE block
- Thread starter AndrewZ
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frnkeore
Well-known member
I don't think the above ever happened.
The 360 HP 352, had heads specifically designed for it, they were C0AE -D and had a minimum 59.7cc cast chamber. Same heads that were used on the 375/401 HP 390's, with dished pistons.
The HP 360 pistons, sat lower in the block, unlike the 300/352, that seat higher in the block than the HP 360. IMO, it wasn't the best arrangement for horsepower in the HP 360. I believe the reason for Ford lowering the piston, was for valve clearance, since they didn't use valve reliefs in those days.
My block is a early casting, dated Sept of '57. I don't know when the first production run was, possibly July? But, even though mine has bosses for front Welch plugs, they are not machined, only the rear and heads are. Also note that on the rear, there are 2 additional bosses for (I assume) Welch plugs. The 1 1/4 plug holes, in the heads, are like the ones in the SBF and very handy for me. I used them to hold the heads, in position for my machine work and do the same for the SBF.
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KULTULZ
Well-known member
The FE 361 (and MEL 410) was introduced earlier than the 332/352 as the 1958 EDSEL(S) had an early release date.
The MEL 410 was actually intended for the 57 MERC TPC but casting problems moved back production and it went to the EDSEL. MERC then used the 368 LYB for HP in 1957.
frnkeore
Well-known member
KULTULZ, I'm afraid I will need some documentation of the things you are stating.
The HP 360, was not a first release, it came after Dec of '59. The block could have been a EDC -B or C but, a original engine has a B9AE block, dated 9M. In order for it to be a 360 HP 352, it has to have the C0AE - D heads, shorter CH pistons (1.844) and a 352 HP, aluminum intake. Most likely with a 9M or later 0 date.
Regarding the release of the Edsel, I believe it was released 7/15/57, 2 months before the '58 Fords, almost a month later in the West. So, there must be, at least June dated 361's
Where do you get your documentation of the 410 MEL being slated for the '57 model year of the Merc? I have never heard that. I owned a '58 Corsair, with the 410, it was just a 430 with a 4.200 bore and it would seem unusual that Ford would release a the MEL in the Merc, before it's release in the in the Edsel and Linc.
The release of the Edsel was a very special event, to honor Henry II's father. The Edsel had BOTH the Ford and Merc chassis (only Ford product to have that) and many options that the Merc & Linc didn't have. I had a mechanical tach in my Corsair and no other car, had the push button shift control, also included in the Edsel options was, optional 9 tube, auto tuning radio with antenna trimmer, fuel level warning light, settable speed warning light, oil level warning light, "Edsel Lubricator" vacuum operated chassis lubing, Electric wipers. Very advanced stuff for '58.
The HP 360, was not a first release, it came after Dec of '59. The block could have been a EDC -B or C but, a original engine has a B9AE block, dated 9M. In order for it to be a 360 HP 352, it has to have the C0AE - D heads, shorter CH pistons (1.844) and a 352 HP, aluminum intake. Most likely with a 9M or later 0 date.
Regarding the release of the Edsel, I believe it was released 7/15/57, 2 months before the '58 Fords, almost a month later in the West. So, there must be, at least June dated 361's
Where do you get your documentation of the 410 MEL being slated for the '57 model year of the Merc? I have never heard that. I owned a '58 Corsair, with the 410, it was just a 430 with a 4.200 bore and it would seem unusual that Ford would release a the MEL in the Merc, before it's release in the in the Edsel and Linc.
The release of the Edsel was a very special event, to honor Henry II's father. The Edsel had BOTH the Ford and Merc chassis (only Ford product to have that) and many options that the Merc & Linc didn't have. I had a mechanical tach in my Corsair and no other car, had the push button shift control, also included in the Edsel options was, optional 9 tube, auto tuning radio with antenna trimmer, fuel level warning light, settable speed warning light, oil level warning light, "Edsel Lubricator" vacuum operated chassis lubing, Electric wipers. Very advanced stuff for '58.
KULTULZ
Well-known member
And I in return would like to see some documentation countering it.
Patrick brophy
Senior Member
And in the far corner wearing the red trunks........
frnkeore
Well-known member
KULTULZ,
To begin with HR Mag tested a prototype 360 HP, in Dec of '59. Proto because it had non standard equip, such as power brakes, never offered on the Regular Production 360 HP. MT Mag, tested a RP 360 HP, in Jan of '60.
The RP heads for 1960 were cast chamber C0AE -C, 73cc, 9.6 CR not EDC heads. The 360 HP heads were C0AE -D, 59.7cc, 10.6 CR.
My 1960 first year, Service Manual, does not list a 360 HP. I have searched for a later editions or supplements, for this very issue and as yet, can not find any.
The info, in my last paragraph, regarding the Edsel, comes from my 1958 Edsel, Service Manual.
I've documented my EDC Edsel block and heads, with pictures.
Regarding the EDC-B & C blocks being used in the 360 HP, I found a reference for that here:
http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/engine/partnums.htm
Regarding the B9AE block being used for the 360 HP, you'll find a marked original block here:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9585.50
There is more but, they are bits and pieces, connected with math, to prove CR and deck height.
Now, with all do respect, I ask for your documentation showing EDC heads being used for the 360 HP and how they could get 10.6 CR out of them and especially for your reference of the 410 MEL, being slated for use in the regular product year, for the '57 Merc.
To begin with HR Mag tested a prototype 360 HP, in Dec of '59. Proto because it had non standard equip, such as power brakes, never offered on the Regular Production 360 HP. MT Mag, tested a RP 360 HP, in Jan of '60.
The RP heads for 1960 were cast chamber C0AE -C, 73cc, 9.6 CR not EDC heads. The 360 HP heads were C0AE -D, 59.7cc, 10.6 CR.
My 1960 first year, Service Manual, does not list a 360 HP. I have searched for a later editions or supplements, for this very issue and as yet, can not find any.
The info, in my last paragraph, regarding the Edsel, comes from my 1958 Edsel, Service Manual.
I've documented my EDC Edsel block and heads, with pictures.
Regarding the EDC-B & C blocks being used in the 360 HP, I found a reference for that here:
http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/engine/partnums.htm
Regarding the B9AE block being used for the 360 HP, you'll find a marked original block here:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9585.50
There is more but, they are bits and pieces, connected with math, to prove CR and deck height.
Now, with all do respect, I ask for your documentation showing EDC heads being used for the 360 HP and how they could get 10.6 CR out of them and especially for your reference of the 410 MEL, being slated for use in the regular product year, for the '57 Merc.
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KULTULZ
Well-known member
Listen and this is in all due respect also ...
The reason that you cannot find service info on the engine is that it was not a regular production engine but an experimental engine in that it went through many phases as did all HP engines. Most saw several upgrades as a result of failures on the track. It cannot be stated that all were built to the same specs with the same parts.
If you don't accept my statements and disagree, simply state that I don't agree. It's not the end of the world to me.
I am not about to get into a 'show me yours and I will show you mine'.
Oh, forgot. The 410 was slated for 1957 intro into the MERC. FORD had a lot of casting problems with the series and intro was delayed. Research MEL DIVISION history and you will find it.
The reason that you cannot find service info on the engine is that it was not a regular production engine but an experimental engine in that it went through many phases as did all HP engines. Most saw several upgrades as a result of failures on the track. It cannot be stated that all were built to the same specs with the same parts.
If you don't accept my statements and disagree, simply state that I don't agree. It's not the end of the world to me.
I am not about to get into a 'show me yours and I will show you mine'.
Oh, forgot. The 410 was slated for 1957 intro into the MERC. FORD had a lot of casting problems with the series and intro was delayed. Research MEL DIVISION history and you will find it.
frnkeore
Well-known member
All I can say, is that I've showed you the documentation that you asked for and you and when I ask for the same thing, your response is:
"I am not about to get into a 'show me yours and I will show you mine'."
As near as I can tell, you only offer opinion w/o any documentation, at all. I'm sorry but, that is another fact, that has come from this discussion.
Lastly, I went to the trouble of providing my references to you and the best you can do, is write this?
"Research MEL DIVISION history and you will find it."
"I am not about to get into a 'show me yours and I will show you mine'."
As near as I can tell, you only offer opinion w/o any documentation, at all. I'm sorry but, that is another fact, that has come from this discussion.
Lastly, I went to the trouble of providing my references to you and the best you can do, is write this?
"Research MEL DIVISION history and you will find it."
KULTULZ
Well-known member
You reference is HR MAGAZINE regarding an article written by a TECH WRITER. You need to go in further with actual FORD data.
But concerning my statement(s), you are correct, none of it happened. I am just trying to bolster myself among my peers at this one message board.
All of this is info packed away and I have no desire to rummage through it. So let's just leave the subject(s) with my making casual statements with no actual hard facts to back them up.
... sheesh ... why me? ...
KULTULZ
Well-known member
frnkeore
Well-known member
As they say......"If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" 
The Dec '59, Hot Rod Mag's proto type and Motor Trends production car test, in Jan of '60, prove the time line!
Show me anything that has a available 360 HP 352 at the beginning of the '60 model year, ANYTHING!
I posted Ford's available engines, from Ford's 1960 Service Manual. No HC engine and no 360HP engine.
Also, you might explain, from any Ford source, when the C0AE -C and C0AE -D heads were manufactured and what engines they were manufactured for.
The Dec '59, Hot Rod Mag's proto type and Motor Trends production car test, in Jan of '60, prove the time line!
Show me anything that has a available 360 HP 352 at the beginning of the '60 model year, ANYTHING!
I posted Ford's available engines, from Ford's 1960 Service Manual. No HC engine and no 360HP engine.
Also, you might explain, from any Ford source, when the C0AE -C and C0AE -D heads were manufactured and what engines they were manufactured for.
KULTULZ
Well-known member
As they say......"If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Unless, of course, the kitchen is on fire. And who is they. For that matter, where the hell is OZONA, TX?
Again, FORD did not usually include a HP engine in SERVICE LITERATURE. It was supplied in TSB or through someone like HOLMAN-MOODY.
Where did I ever say the 360hp was available at start of the production year? The HP was not to my knowledge in any issue of the 1960 FORD WSM.
I would need the CASTING ID INFO from all castings for 1960. Can you provide that? Maybe HR or MOTOR-TREND has that information in a missed issue. That's where I always go for factual tech info.
And where did I say (or post) that COAE-A & D heads were not on the engine? This what I said (posted) ...
You know, I am beginning to enjoy this. You never mud wrestle with a pig as the pig really enjoys it.
frnkeore
Well-known member
Wrong, HP engines are included in the '61 (375HP), '62 (375HP) and the later 62 service manual with supplement, that includes the 375HP, 390, 385HP, 406 and the 405HP, 406. engine. I have all those manuals.
Someone needs to take that shovel, out of your hands or you'll be lost, forever.
EDC heads, could not have EVER been used on the 360 HP engine! You can not get 10.6 CR with them, ever w/o pop up pistons, not used until the 427.
A 360HP, 352, has to have the following to be real:
1. One year only aluminum manifold, with flat carb pad (no angle)
2. 540 CFM Holley carb (I can get you the Ford carb # if you want)
3. HP solid lifter cam
4. C0AE -D heads
5. "Shorty" cast headers
6. Dual point dist w/o vac adv. There may be a exception here and the very first engines (very few like <10) may have had VA and single points
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I actually find all of this interesting. Thanks for the block pics. Didn't know the carb pad was flat on intake. Did it use an angled spacer under carb like the 385 engine in Continentals? Probably just a miss type but don't think they had any D0AE -D heads in 60. Just a question, but on a casting isn't there an exact time it was cast in the casting? I mean like for example the 5th day of the 10th month on 2nd shift. Or is that something that came later. The parts books are full of revisions. I have a 67 Galaxie, it was built after March 67. So it came with nylon fuel line, plastic w/washer tank and small thermostat. Just don't say never about Ford. I work in an assembly plant and things and parts are changed and substitutions are made, but now they want serial number of first new part installed documentation. Not sure how they did back when.