The new Burtz Mosel A engine

[Dave in MN]

I'm sure that Dave was looking at you 'dry' remarks, that you made in yesterdays comments at 11:41 entry...as was I.

Assembly of this puzzle (engine) is a detail oriented operation. Even professional auto technicians make (expensive) mistakes. Don't hesitate to have others help you to inspect what you've done.

One missing piece of this puzzle can ruin all.
Good luck !

hardtimes, Exactly. In post #44 it looked like the plan was to check the clearance with Plastigage devoid of oil and that would lead to false readings.

My intention is not to rile anyone. The reason for my post was to make sure Plastigage is used correctly to avoid false clearance data. I also wanted to point out that the aluminum foil method of determining bearing clearance is not fitting for insert bearing engines.

I have assembled over 200 engines over the past 10 years converted over to insert bearings. Insert bearings require a precise fit. Too little bearing clearance and they will dramatically fail, too much clearance the engine may leak and eventually the bearing will fail. Install them correctly and keep the oil clean and they will run for years. My '29 Phaeton has 98,000 miles on the original insert bearings and it leaves no trail of oil.
Good Day!

 

[hardtimes]

So these engine blocks are made in China?

Hey oldredford,
If you don’t know history of this situation, since you asked....
For MANY years, Terry spun his wheels, spent his time , talents and money to make this happen....here in the USA. Never happened !
Now the engine will live on and on !
Thanks Terry for sharing your skills , and for your amazing tenacity!!

 

[Synchro909]

Hey oldredford,
If you don’t know history of this situation, since you asked....
For MANY years, Terry spun his wheels, spent his time , talents and money to make this happen....here in the USA. Never happened !
Now the engine will live on and on !
Thanks Terry for sharing your skills , and for your amazing tenacity!!

That's exactly how I saw it develop too. Like most countries in the west these days, those skills have disappeared. Where will we stand when the inevitable confrontation with China happens if we (the west) cannot do even this?

 

[HD Rider]

That's exactly how I saw it develop too. Like most countries in the west these days, those skills have disappeared. Where will we stand when the inevitable confrontation with China happens if we (the west) cannot do even this?

The talent is still here. Just look up Cory Anderson's Case 150 Road Locomotive. We have just priced ourselves out of business.

 

[johnneilson]

This may or may not be the situation, just an observation.
It was not that long ago, here in Los Angeles you could find just about any process/manufacturing specialty and have quality components made.
Casting is an art form and there are not that many left who can do complex pieces especially in Iron. We have become "specialty" manufacturers, cranks, rods, pistons etc.

If I am understanding the situation, Terry and John have utilized an engine manufacturing company that employs all the necessary disciples. This is important to keep in mind as they do provide engines for car manufacturers so the amount of work to coordinate the project is minimal. I suspect that this is another reason the project came together so quickly.

This is a great move for the Model "A" community, John

 

[Dave in MN]

Re: The new Burtz Model A engine

I had time in the shop today to fit the bearings and crank in the Burtz engine I purchased.

Burtz engine # 21020303-0007
The main bearing housing bores were deburred. The parting lines on the caps and block at the housing bore were filed to remove the razor sharp edge. All other machined edges were radiused with a de-burring tool. The bearing location tangs were checked in the block and deemed okay. The location tang cuts in the caps needed a very slight dressing with a 1.25" dia. cut-off wheel in a Dremel tool. All location tang cuts were lightly dressed with fine emery cloth to remove any unseen burs or razor edges left from machining. No changes were made to the insert shells.

The bearings were set and crank installed.

Clearances, using fresh Plastigage were:
Front .0018"
#2 .002"
Center .0018"
#4 .0018"
Rear .0018"
Crank thrust clearance .002" without any adjustment to the thrust washers.

The work above required about 1.75 hours. (I rebuild engines and have most of the needed tools already set up.)
I will update this post after further assembly.
Overall, pretty impressive machining work on this block.
Good Day!

 

[Russ/40]

Now, those are the kind of plastigauge numbers I would want to see.
Thanks Dave for the report.

 

[buckwild 27]

Everything is balanced individually so it's still balanced if you change out a prt of the system

 

[Pete]

Everything is balanced individually so it's still balanced if you change out a part of the system

Not necessarily. That system is used because it works for a production engine.
It is NOT the best or most accurate way. It is adaquate only.

It is also why some engines shake and some don't even after balancing.

 

[Synchro909]

The talent is still here. Just look up Cory Anderson's Case 150 Road Locomotive. We have just priced ourselves out of business.

I'm not so sure about that and I believe accountants are mostly to blame. They have chased the cheapest price for an item for years without consideration for the long term implications and what it means for industry at home. After many years of losing business to cheap labour countries, our industries have withered and skills lost as those with the skills retire.
I hope you are right about the skills still being there but.....

 

[KMeredith87]

Curious what the future plans are for this engine. I’ve followed moderately. Is it going to be a limited run deal only? I believe Todd is still working a new original block as well, is that correct? I’ve been out of the loop for a while. Good to see these engines going together and excited to see what the lucky ones who are running them have to say once they’ve been broken in and run hard.

 

[Jim Brierley]

It's my understanding that 4 cylinder engines do not need balancing as an entire assembly, just all the pieces must be done. All pistons must weigh the same, rods the same etc. Crank and/or flywheel can be balanced individually.

 

[wrpercival]

Curious what the future plans are for this engine. I’ve followed moderately. Is it going to be a limited run deal only? I believe Todd is still working a new original block as well, is that correct? I’ve been out of the loop for a while. Good to see these engines going together and excited to see what the lucky ones who are running them have to say once they’ve been broken in and run hard.

In regards to the Burtz Block, the plan is to continue production. Demand for the initial run exceeded supply and there is a reservation list of pre-orders forming on the next run. Production on that (larger) run is already underway with an August 2021 delivery projected. Reservations/Pre-orders can be placed at: https://burtzblock.com No deposit is required to place a reservation on a block. Pre-orders will be fulfilled in the order they were received.

Longer-term, the goal is to have inventory warehoused & available to ship in the US. Based on the demand thus far, and the impact of global supply chain issues that most are aware of, it may be a year before that balance is reached.

 

[Pete]

It's my understanding that 4 cylinder engines do not need balancing as an entire assembly, just all the pieces must be done. All pistons must weigh the same, rods the same etc. Crank and/or flywheel can be balanced individually.

To fully balance a 4 cylinder in-line engine, you balance the individual pieces first. This means rods end for end, pistons,pins,rings, pin retainers if used and rod bearings.
Then you balance the crank statically and dynamically. Statically means ,as a whole or in a single plane. Dynamically means over the whole length.
Then you put any front pulley or damper that is used on and balance that. Then you put the flywheel on and balance that. Then the clutch and balance that. As a side note, knowing where to remove weight on these pieces is extremely critical and you NEVER weld weights on a clutch cover to balance it. After balancing these parts are marked so they can be reassembled in the same orientation. At this point, a reasonably close static balance has been achieved for the whole assembly and final static balance touchup can be done if needed. Then dynamic balance of the whole assembly is done.

Individual pieces can be balanced and mix assembled to give an acceptable street balance job most of the time but here "most" is the critical word. It depends on the quality of the arbors used and the amount of unbalance that is to be tolerated.

 

[Jeff/Illinois]

Interesting thread!!

As a former Fords Parts Manager and not a 'mechanic' I have learned an important principle here.

The day I buy one of Mr. Burtz' new engines, my next call will be to someone like Dave in Minnesota that knows what the heck he's doing, to build the thing

I know the parts. I know what they do. But I also know when to draw the line!

 

[whirnot]

Reading taildraggers first post, took me back about 50 years to the first engine I rebuilt. I did the same thing, but didn't know to double check everything. Got the engine back together and it wouldn't turn. A new set of inserts and some plastic age, and we were in business.

 

[mercman from oz]

Very impressive casting indeed.

 

[johnneilson]

Jim is correct, a 4 banger cannot be fully balanced because the offset piston acceleration.
You can equalize everything as much as possible, but never truly balance the motor.
Counterbalance the crank as much as you can, BB cranks work great, minimize the rod weight and the pistons too.

Banger motors making real HP will shake, that is a fact, a power stroke every 180 degs on the crank is why. Had a guy tell me he didn't like his motor shaking, I took the timing out and it settled down, then made no power. Guess what the final result was?

John

 

[Pete]

Jim is correct, a 4 banger cannot be fully balanced because the offset piston acceleration.
You can equalize everything as much as possible, but never truly balance the motor.
Counterbalance the crank as much as you can, BB cranks work great, minimize the rod weight and the pistons too.

Banger motors making real HP will shake, that is a fact, a power stroke every 180 degs on the crank is why. Had a guy tell me he didn't like his motor shaking, I took the timing out and it settled down, then made no power. Guess what the final result was?

John

You are absolutely correct. "Fully" is interpreted two different ways here.
It is NOT the best word to use.
You can not get enough weight on the crank to 100% balance it. There is not enough room in the crankcase. Balance shafts are another way to 100% balance. Either way, a complete re-design of the engine would be required.

 

[Terry Burtz Calif]

The "New Engine" has 8 counterweights and ample room for added tungsten weights if desired.

Balance shafts are used to make buyers of 4-cylinder engines comfortable because they don't see or feel vibrations.

Engines with balance shafts that are used in racing have their balance shafts discarded to reduce weight.